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Old 05-17-08, 04:50AM   #1
JMackPontiac
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Question 455 'YC' Block

'71 455 'YC' Block.

Without raising the Engine to pull the Pan or pulling the Engine, how is one to know whether it is a 2 Bolt or 4 Bolt Main? (I hate to do this as it has less than 1000 miles since rebuilt, runs perfect and doesn't leak a DROP of Oil.)

I am about to do a Head/Cam (Solid Roller) swap (Stock 6X-8's on it now) and a few other things to make it a strong runner while I set up the Rear/Chassis/Cage, etc., for some serious power to come in the near future.

I was 'told' that it has Eagle Forged H-Beam Rods, TRW/Speed-Pro +.030 Forged Flat Top Pistons, original 'N' Crank turned .010/.010. I will know these things once the current Carb/Intake/Heads are pulled.

Is there an 'easy' way to look down into the Crank area to see if it has 2 or 4 Bolt Mains? Mirror? Special Tool? From my research, there are no given numbers associated with the Serial Number or Casting Number that will identify 2 or 4 Bolt, correct?

What kind of HP/Torque/RPM will be 'safe' to run on this Engine ('NOT' Hard Filled) with 2 Bolt Mains with Bolts? How about if it is a 4 Bolt? I don't want to hurt anything, but, don't mind pushing it to the edge.

My Desk Top Dyno2000 shows I will be making 500 HP @ 5500 RPM and 536 Torque @ 4500 RPM. Most people that I have asked say the it will be closer to 525+ HP and 560/570+ Torque. I don't know?

Should I leave the Solid Mounts on it or use something different?

Stock Balancer ok if it checks out good? I don't intend to ever take it past 6000 RPM.

Any need for a Lifter Bore Brace with a 'small' Solid Roller? UD .582 Lift, 254 I/ 262E Duration @ .050 and 108 Lobe Seperation.?

Thanks for your input.

JMack
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Old 05-17-08, 10:17AM   #2
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I dont know how to check for the 4 bolt mains,but my `71 YC was a 2bolt.

I feel you have nothing to worry about with your combo.

I ran mine with a solid roller;.272 @.050,for ten years with ZERO problems.
It ran in the low 11s-high 10s @124 mph.Shifted between 6200-6400.
Also,mine wasnt filled,and had no lifter brace.When I took it apart last summer,the bearings and crank were fine.I used a factory uncut `N` crank.

I would shit can the solid mounts;people have been known to rip out the side of the block with those.Go with mity mounts,or front and rear plate from AllPontiac.

Good luck.

Mark.
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Old 05-17-08, 02:06PM   #3
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Hey Mark. Thanks for your input. A couple of questions, was your Block 'Studded' or Bolted Caps?

Mity Mounts, do they have rubber or the polyurethane type material in them? Who carries them?

I plan to go to Plate Type Mounts when I install the 'healthier' Engine.

Did you use a stock type dampner?

Looks like from your ET's and MPH, just guessing your cars weight, you were making over 600 HP?

Very nice looking Bird btw.

Thanks again.

JMack
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Old 05-17-08, 04:42PM   #4
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Hey JMack, I don't know anyway to tell if it is 4 bolt without pulling the pan. I doubt it is a 4 bolt. Although it will be drilled and tapped for 4 bolt caps. I wouldn't worry about the 2 bolt caps. I would run studs in it though. They clamp better than bolts do. The main reason for 4 bolt caps is NOT to keep the crank from ripping the bolts down, out of the block, but rather for keeping the caps from walking around. Pontiac did two things to help prevent that. They dowel pinned the caps and used 1/2" bolts with 9/16" in the rear. Pontiacs don't have much of a problem with caps walking around like Chevies do. A stud kit in the 2 bolt mains will be all you need. The EMC engine I built had stock caps with studs. If you are worried about the stock caps breaking, then you could probably machine the cap flat with the bolt pads and run a steel strap across the cap, and I think someone now makes a main cap girdle for Pontiacs if you really want to stiffen it up. But I have never built a Pontiac with a girdle.

I would not run a stock damper on it. I have seen engines like what you are building, rap much quicker than stock and they spin the balancer outer ring. I would get a good SFI damper for it. If you don't want to spend a ton of money on one, Pioneer makes a decent SFI damper for under $200. BHJ makes a good one that is a press fit[which is better] but is a little pricier. I think they make a slip fit also.

As far as lifter bore brace is concerned, it's not the duration at .050 that matters so much as the major intensity number[refered to as MIN from here out]. The MIN is the difference, in degrees, between the .050 duration and the SAE or total duration. Hyd. roller cams, for example have a MIN in the 50-55 range. ie: 236 @ .050 and 288 total for a given lobe. Now if we look at my buddies UD solid roller, 264/271 @ .050 and 300/307 total. You will see that these lobe have a MIN of only 36. These lobes are much faster ramp lobes than a hyd. roller. They apply much more force on the lifter bores than slower ramps do. I had a customer a couple of weeks ago that had one of UDHarold designed Lunati Voodoo cam for a circle track Chevy. It was a solid flat tappet cam with 255 @ .050 and 283 total! This cam has a MIN of only 28! That is incredibly fast. Comp cams all out drag race roller cams have 28 MIN, by comparison. The Voodoo cam is a FLAT TAPPET with the same valve acceleration as a solid roller. Don't know how he does it but that man is a cam genius!

So what I'm trying to say with a few examples is, you need to look at the MIN of a given cam before you decide not to run a brace. It sure makes a mess if one does break off. Something that a couple hundred $'s and a little time could have prevented. As far as somone saying that lifter bore braces spread the lifter valley apart and make it crack? I don't believe that for a minute. They are hardly applying any outward force on the block. If they applied that much force, they would distort the lifter bores a lot more than they do. The KRE brace doesn't even apply force to the lifter bores, it just bolts in place and kind of rests up against the lifter bores, only preventing them from moving outwards.
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Old 05-17-08, 05:25PM   #5
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Also, the 455 I built for a buddy[the one I posted some videos of] just had 2 bolt mains and one day in his driveway he was messing around with it and he stomped it to the floor for a second and the tranny cable[hooked to accelerator linkage] frayed and stuck the throttle wide open. He said it sat there for about a minute bouncing off the 7000 rpm rev limiter! After he got it shut down, he called me worried about it. I asked him if it still started and sounded fine and had good oil pressure, he said yes, but it was making blue smoke pretty bad. I told him to drive it some to clear out the oil it probably pushed up past the rings from crankcase pressure and that it should clear up. It did and about a year later we tore the engine down to check things out and the bearings looked absolutely perfect. So signs of main cap walk either, so I think you'll be fine.
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Old 05-17-08, 06:24PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMackPontiac View Post
Hey Mark. Thanks for your input. A couple of questions, was your Block 'Studded' or Bolted Caps?

Mity Mounts, do they have rubber or the polyurethane type material in them? Who carries them?

I plan to go to Plate Type Mounts when I install the 'healthier' Engine.

Did you use a stock type dampner?

Looks like from your ET's and MPH, just guessing your cars weight, you were making over 600 HP?

Very nice looking Bird btw.

Thanks again.

JMack
I used the factory bolts in the mains.

I dont know who carries the mity mounts;I have read on the forums that many people like `em.I used factory mounts.
I used an ATI balancer.
My car was 3590lbs with me in it.

Thanks for the compliment.

Mark.
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Old 05-17-08, 08:05PM   #7
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Hey Paul,

Thanks for 'all' that great information! A lot of information for an HVAC Man/ Shade Tree Mechanic to take in, but, after reading and rereading it, I get exactly what you are saying! QUALITY information that is greatly appreciated.

I already have a TCI 'Rattler' sitting in the garage, brand new. Got it from the same guy that I got the UD Solid Roller Cam from. I was really wanting to save it for the 'future' project, I could go ahead and use it. Or, do you think I
should save it and get a good (cheaper) SFI Dampner for this one? Is there a problem with reusing the Rattler a little down the road? (I bought the Cam and the Dampner, both brand new, from a guy on the cheap. LESS than half of what they would have cost from Vendors.)

I already have a brand new Lifter Bore Brace, turns out to be the same one that KRE sells, lol. I bought it straight through Troy at about a $60 savings. I have heard some people say they don't like that Brace, from a common sense perspective, I actually like it more than most of the others. Is it safe to say, that if you take your time, make sure that no metal shavings go anywhere that they are not wanted, it is safe to install the Brace with the Engine in the Car? Looks like from your explanation on the MIN, I will need it for cheap insurance. The Cam is has an advertised Duration of 287 I/ 295 E which would make the MIN 33*.

I have to agree with you about UDHarold, he is no doubt a Cam genius! Lunati done good when they hired him to do their Cam designs. Maybe Harold can one day get back out on his own. Everything I have ever read or heard from Pontiac guys, beyond a doubt, Harold designed the absolute best Cams ever made for us Injun Boys.

I feel pretty confident that I will be in the safe zone for this Engine.

Depending on how much HP/Torque I wind up with, won't really know for sure until I get it done and tuned/dialed in. There is always the option of 'Juicing' it just enough to get me where I want to be, for the here and now.
(Got a brand new NX kit sitting in the garage with a purge kit, seperate pump and 1 gallon tank, remote opener, the list goes on.)

I remember reading about your buddies Engine that you built for him on another post, hanging wide open, bouncing off the 7K Rev Limiter for a 'minute' and him being worried. I have to ask, WTF took him so long to get it shut down? He must have been in a state of shock, you know, completely frozen for 30 seconds before he could react, lol. Actually not funny at all, just the picture in my mind of him while this was happening. That speaks pretty highly of the durability/capability of a somewhat stock bottom end (2 Bolt) Pontiac Engine. I would also give the Engine Machinist/Builder a little credit there too!

Thanks again for your input/information.

JMack
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Old 05-17-08, 08:16PM   #8
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Hey Mark,

Thanks for the info.

Factory Bolts and Caps, pretty impressive!

I found the Mity Mounts, they are made by APE (Ames Performance Engineering.) Both APE and Butler sale them for $99 per set.

ATI makes good stuff, from all that I can find out. I kind of figured a 'better than stock' Dampner would be needed.

From best I can figure, you were making right at 550 HP. Nice to leave those 'other' Boys looking at nothing but the Birds ass huh?

Thanks for your help.

JMack
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Old 05-17-08, 08:53PM   #9
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Is that ATI damper set up for Chevy pulleys? The ones for Pontiac I have seen were set up for Chevy pulleys. WTF?

Yeah, my buddy was freaking out and running around trying to get the throttle closed and what not. In reality it was probably only 30 seconds but in that situation, it probably seemed like minutes! LOL!

I don't know if I would try to install KRE's lifter bore brace with the engine installed as drilling and tapping is required. Unless you are really carefull and can find a way to keep chips out. You also have to grind the brace to fit the lifter bores.

UDHarold is a friend of ours at the shop here. We get cams from him all the time. He works from his house now and contracts with Custom Camshaft Co. to get them ground. His new lobes are even better than his old UD lobes, which were great lobes.
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Old 05-18-08, 02:43AM   #10
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ah hah someone finally answere's a long time question of mine! lifter braces only sit against the bores, that makes sense! from what i was told they made it sound as if the brace applied pressure. also Why does ati and tci make their dampers with a chevy 3 bolt pattern???
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Old 05-18-08, 01:04PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 464GP69 View Post
also Why does ati and tci make their dampers with a chevy 3 bolt pattern???

I've been asking myself this question for a long time. It's for a Pontiac, NOT a Chevy! So why on earth do they take Chevy pulleys? Stuff like this just kills me.
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Old 05-18-08, 03:24PM   #12
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(gtofreek/464GP69) "Why does ati and tci make their dampers with a chevy 3bolt pattern???"

I can't answer those questions. My only guess would be, their machines are already set up for the Chevy 3-bolt pattern? Bottom line is profit afterall. I just know that for the price I got the TCI Rattler for, I couldn't pass it up. I just picked up a 3-Bolt Chevy Pulley for $10.

(464GP69) "lifter braces only sit against the bores, that makes sense! from what i was told they made it sound as if the brace applied pressure."

gtofreek answered that well.........BS on a Lifter Bore Brace applying pressure, not the T/W Motor Sports one that I have anyhow. I can't answer for some of the rest that are being sold. I am not an Engine builder, but, I do have common sense. The T/W Brace actually 'ties' each end of the Block together in the Lifter Valley and has a Lifter Bore Brace (for every hole, not just some of the holes) that all tie in together. I like the design of it over any of the others that I have seen. JMHO

(gtofreek) "I don't know if I would try to install KRE's lifter bore brace with the engine installed as drilling and tapping is required. Unless you are really carefull and can find a way to keep chips out. You also have to grind the brace to fit the lifter bores."

Paul, STOP calling my Lifter Bore Brace a 'KRE'! The one that 'KRE' sells is made by Troy Wotring 'T/W Motor Sports'. I bought mine directly from Troy for $140, want his address?
I know you have to drill/tap, I think it is 4 holes. I think that if I really take my time, make sure every hole and little nook and cranny are stuffed full clean rags, have a helper hold the Shop-Vac right there when drilling/tapping, then very carefully cleaned up afterwards, it is possible to install the Brace without any metal shavings getting into the Engine. The grinding that is done to the Brace itself is all done 'away' from the Engine.
Great to know Harold is still doing his thing and that you have a direct connection with him!

I am surprised that more people/experts haven't chimed in here?

I still want to know, Is there a definitie way to know whether or not a '71 'YC' 455 was factory equipped with 2 or 4 Bolt Caps. From the Serial number?

Also, noone has answered, what is the -safe- HP/RPM for a 2 Bolt '71 'YC' 455that has 'not' been filled? What is the upper limit of HP/RPM that would be "pushing the envelope?"

Thanks again to those that have shared their wisdom and experience!

JMack
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Old 05-18-08, 04:33PM   #13
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I did not know the KRE brace[or, rather, the one that KRE sells] is someone else's. This is the T/W motorsports one you talk about?
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Old 05-19-08, 02:00PM   #14
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Paul, That punch to the eye was a friendly punch by the way. Yes, the Lifter Bore Brace that 'KRE' sells is Troys. Maybe I should put it this way, "The Brace that I see advertised on KRE's web site sure looks like the same one to me." Could be that the boys at KRE and Troy are friends, they are all from Ohio, or, could be the fact that if you look at the set-up, it looks to be the best one offered. IMO
Have you ever seen this particular Brace? If not, take a look at how it 'ties' the Block together from end to end and then how all the Bore Braces tie into the main Brace, looks like the ticket to me.

What do 'you' feel are the -safe- RPM/HP levels for this Block, as it sits?

What do you feel the -pushing the envelope- RPM/HP level would be, as it sits?

Look, if I blow it all to hell, I aint going to get on here and thrash you. I am a big boy and take full responsibility for 'my' mistakes. I am just looking for an honest opinion from someone 'in the know'. It is pretty obvious that you know your shit about a Pontiac.

I don't intend to push it past 600 HP or past 6000 RPM. I would NEVER intentionally hurt this or any other Block/Part, but, I don't mind living a little on the edge either.

Thanks,

JMack
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Old 05-20-08, 12:36AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMackPontiac View Post
Paul, That punch to the eye was a friendly punch by the way.
No hurt feelings here. And, besides, the swelling went down after a day!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMackPontiac View Post
Yes, the Lifter Bore Brace that 'KRE' sells is Troys. Maybe I should put it this way, "The Brace that I see advertised on KRE's web site sure looks like the same one to me." Could be that the boys at KRE and Troy are friends, they are all from Ohio, or, could be the fact that if you look at the set-up, it looks to be the best one offered. IMO
Have you ever seen this particular Brace? If not, take a look at how it 'ties' the Block together from end to end and then how all the Bore Braces tie into the main Brace, looks like the ticket to me.
Yes, I have installed one of these before. To be honest with you, they are ok, but require a lot more work than the Mega-Brace that Butler, and possibly others, sell. I don't see any real advantage to the brace being tied into the front and rear as blocks split from side to side if they fail. The Mega-Brace supports more of the lifter bore than the Troy one does. The Troy one only supports about 1/4" of the lifter bore while the Mega-Brace supports most all of the lifter bore. I think it is stronger and with the epoxy filling in the gaps, it is a solid install and about as strong as you can get. IMO. The Mega-brace does not support all of the lifter bores, true, but it does support the only two bores prone to breaking off. They are both on the passenger side as the cam turns CW, it is trying to push the lifter bore towards the center of the engine where it has no support. The lifter bores on the drivers bank don't break off becasue the lobe is pushing the bore towards the cylinders where it has plenty of support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMackPontiac View Post
What do 'you' feel are the -safe- RPM/HP levels for this Block, as it sits?
For rather frequent use I would stick to about 600HP or less and with a good oiling system, and good rods and such, I'd say you will be ok if you keep it under 6200. They can run higher for short bursts, like 1/4 or 1/8 mile racing. The important thing is to use a good oil and have enough clearance, but not too much, to keep the bearings cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMackPontiac View Post
What do you feel the -pushing the envelope- RPM/HP level would be, as it sits?
As it sits, 63 -6500 because of the heavy pistons and pins. I think I would feel better about it being filled and braced and studed if you plan on more that 550HP.
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