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Old 07-26-17, 12:27PM   #1
462TA
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Default Getting Faster

So here is a rundown of what I have at the moment:
80 TA, around 3700 lbs, 455, th400, 3400 10 inch UCC converter, 10 bolt rear with arp studs for the caps, moser axles, braced cover, 3.42 gears. This is a street/strip car that has subframe connectors and cal tracs, 3 way adj shocks on all 4 corners.
The 455 was bought on a budget for $1200 when I was 15. It has a stock crank, stock rods resized with arp bolts, TRW pistons - .030 over. Stock two bolt mains and bolts. 87cc Edelbrock heads flowing 307 cfm from Butler. xr288 hydraulic roller with 236/242 @.050 with 520/540 lift with 1.5 roller rockers, on a 110 LSA. Northwind Intake port matched.
I have ran 7.30's at 94 mph with a 1.55 60 ft time so far at 2000 DA.
My goal is to run 6.70's Naturally Aspirated on pump gas. I want to upgrade the rotating assembly with forged rods/ross pistons at minimum, and possibly even a forged crank. Arp main studs with the stock caps or go ahead with 4 bolt billet caps.
Butler sells a forged shortblock with billet mains for $5800... is there a better route I can go to reach my goal for less money but still have a stout bottom end? I know I will need to go with another cam, so that is up in the air for suggestions as well. Also I am thinking about sending the heads to Butler to get them cnc ported to 340 cfm for $700. Just trying to get the thread started. Hit me with any questions if I left something out!
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Old 07-26-17, 10:02PM   #2
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Your definitely going in the right directions on the bottom end, I don't know about getting that much cheaper then 5800.00. That might be tough to do. I say spend the money in the bottom end. Then definitely go with a solid roller. If you can afford to have the heads CNC to 340 CFM go for it, but I think you can achieve your goal with out doing the heads. With heads you have and a good solid roller say 265/268 .@ .050 and 650 lift cam you can get their. I made 625 hp with a Iron head that only flowed 265 CFM.
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Old 07-26-17, 10:11PM   #3
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Oops, mine was 12.1 compression, see your talking pump gas. Must likely a bigger roller, I'd say 265/276 @ .050 on a 110 lobe around 729 lift. It'll make peak power around 6500. You'll need more convertor, gear should be ok. Definitely do the heads if you can afford it. It'll still be pretty street able. What carb are you running now ?
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Old 07-27-17, 04:06AM   #4
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Glad to see you asking questions here too!The best thing you have going is your age!Ask lots of questions and have fun.Your build is much like mine was sooner or later the shortblock needs attention..but its amazing how much power you can coax out of a basic bottom end.Before I bought my current shortblock I was going the same route to an aftermarket 505..,having the heads reworked and setup for a higher lift roller you could easily be in the 650 hp range and fully streetable and easy to drive.
But its your time and money how you want to do it and how fast do you want to go and what is your timeline..
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Old 07-27-17, 03:13PM   #5
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Oops, mine was 12.1 compression, see your talking pump gas. Must likely a bigger roller, I'd say 265/276 @ .050 on a 110 lobe around 729 lift. It'll make peak power around 6500. You'll need more convertor, gear should be ok. Definitely do the heads if you can afford it. It'll still be pretty street able. What carb are you running now ?
Im running fuel injection. It has 8x 76 lb injectors, 58 psi of fuel pressure. The system can handle 1200 hp. That sounds like a pretty big cam to be streetable! The rpm won't be that big of a deal as long as I can get some good rods and light pistons.
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Old 07-27-17, 04:42PM   #6
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Nice...Fuel injection even better. Now that I've thought about it, a little more , here's what I'd do, up grade the bottom end, you can save money if you do it yourself, how much you can save depends on what you'll spend buying the equipment to do all the checking...ring compressor, think you know the tools needed to assemble a shot block...don't worry about making it a 4 bolt main, 2 bolt with studs is just fine. I bracket race one for 2 years with no issues. Putting over 200 runs per season.

Price out a steel crank, think they go for between 650.00 to 750.00, a good set of steel riods, been a while but I'd say 800.00 for rods, probably about the same for after market pistons...Rings, main and rod bearings, cam bearings. The cost for Boeing the block, plus cost of babancing everything, all your gaskets. The thing your going to save on the most is labor. It's time consuming ordering all the parts getting to a machine shop then checking everyone work to make sure it's done right then assembling it yourself. Don't forget the cost of a new oil pump, it adds up quickly. Those are the things you have to think about. I'll give you my take on the cam and overall picture in a few minutes.
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Old 07-27-17, 05:07PM   #7
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The 265-276 @ .050 with 729 lift is probably to aggressive for what your trying to do. It has a .440 lobe lift. And will put you in the 6500 peak hp range.

The 265/268 @ .050, with 650 lift on a 110, only has a 400 lobe. And will peak out at 5500-5800 rpms makes a ton of torques, which is what you need with a Harvey car. I'll have to check the duration numbers I might be off on that more like 255/265 @ .050. With your heads it'll definitely make 600-625 hp.

The thing your trying to accomplish is you need more hp, with a good short block that will handle the power ( as you know rods are the main thing )

The goal it to make more hp, with out having to change allot of things namely convertor and gear. A Harvey car likes allot of gear unless you can make up for it with a tone of torques. A cam with a nice flat torques curve. Like the one I negation.

I would definitely go for more compression, don't know what your is now, can only guess with your 80 cc chamber. 10.75 to 11.1 would be pertefct . Don't be afraid to run that much compression. It's aluminum head and needs at least 1-2 more points over Iron head. I can tell you I ran 12.1 on pump gas with out a denation issue. Compression is also key. in the whole combination.

Of course you'll need to change valve springs so have the heads cut and get as close to 10.75-11.1
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Old 07-27-17, 05:31PM   #8
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One more thing, if you kept your present combination and just made a cam change and up the compression you'd easily get in the 6.70 range. I wouldn't worry about the cast crank with that rpm range. 5500-5800. A good set of rods would be the key thing to change. Be careful going more then 30 over with wall thickness on 455 block. Have wall thickness checked. You could have custom pistons made, then you'd only have to spring for good rods and pistons..rebalnced. Keep it to 40 over. It's a lot to think about.

I'm basically giving you my brother combo, it's a 462 and made 625 hp. With clean up E-heads.
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Old 07-28-17, 10:03AM   #9
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That's a lot of good info Gach! I appreciate all the input. I have thought about going a cheaper route and just springing for some good rods and pistons and just doing a light hone on the cylinder walls. And sticking with the factory caps with upgraded hardware. Right now my 455 is .030 over, but it only has around 3000 miles on it since rebuild and the cylinders still look to be in great shape, so I'm wondering if it even needs to be bored again. That would be up to the machinist I suppose. I would get my heads shaved to around 78cc's to obtain 10.75:1 or so. I have a good friend in the area that has his Pontiac stuff built nearby so I may use the machine shop he uses. It's just hard for me to swing $5800 if I can get away with reaching my goal for $2500 or so
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Old 07-28-17, 11:24AM   #10
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"The 265/268 @ .050, with 650 lift on a 110, only has a 400 lobe. And will peak out at 5500-5800 rpms"

Peak power rpm might be higher.

My previous 4.210" stroke 462 with 313 cfm /227cc runner volume Edelbrock heads made peak power at 5800 rpm with a Performer RPM intake and HP950 carb (580 hp). With a Victor intake peak power was at 6000 rpm (600 hp). The cam was a XE solid roller with 254 degrees duration, .3890" lobe lift /1.6 ratio, 0.18" lash and 108 lobe separation. It only had 9.7 compression.

A similar combo to that with 280 cfm factory d-port heads and a 264 degree solid roller on a 108 LS with a Victor intake and similar Holley carb made peak power at 6400 rpm.

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Old 07-28-17, 06:03PM   #11
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You need to be really careful doing just a "light" hone and trying to go with a new piston. That is, if you want your bores truly "round". Was it bored AND honed with a torque plate AND with the exact type of head gasket used in the build ? Thats how it is done. And if a torque plate was used, was it aluminum since you have E heads ?
A Pontiac can not be bored without a Tq plate and honed with one like a sbc can. It is simply because there is a 1/2" bolt close to the edge of the bore and when you pull it to 90lbs it causes 4 "indents" right exactly where you dont want it, about a inch down the bore right where you are building the most compression.
So, you might want to go to .040 over, custom pistons and 6.8 rods (Molnar are 603$ and great)
You can only push a TRW 455 so far. I am at 10.90 with a TRW 455, Cat H beams, 9.3 CR and iron HOs. I made a mistake in 1988 (its been together since 1990) in not going with Dan Whittmores recommended JE pistons.
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Old 07-28-17, 08:57PM   #12
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Another to think about, know your not considering usesing the TRW Pistons, the valve reliefs aren't deep enough for a roller, the machine shop will want to measure the bore in order to get right size Pistons Just make sure he knows your going with a roller. JE will make any size you need.

Think of it this way, if your going .40 over that only .010 more and he'll only be takes .005 off each side of the blocks bore. A home job is any were from.002-.003.

Another thing, if your keeping it pump gas go with the shortest rod you can fit, stock Pontiac length.

If you can afford the extra bucks go with a BME aluminum rod. The lighter you get the rotating weigh with a stock cast crank the better.
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Old 07-29-17, 12:50AM   #13
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Quote:
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If you can afford the extra bucks go with a BME aluminum rod. The lighter you get the rotating weigh with a stock cast crank the better.
X2
They took 7lbs off my crank to balance.
My heads measured out to 78 cc chamber's
Using a 20 cc dish piston and felpro 1016 gaskets I'm exactly at 9.4:1 compression on my 462
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Old 07-29-17, 01:20AM   #14
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X2
They took 7lbs off my crank to balance.
My heads measured out to 78 cc chamber's
Using a 20 cc dish piston and felpro 1016 gaskets I'm exactly at 9.4:1 compression on my 462
What heads you running ?
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Old 07-29-17, 01:47AM   #15
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#16 D ports
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