PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS
 

Go Back   PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS >
Engine Tech
> Engine Tech Discussion - Street or Strip
User Name
Password

sponser links

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-15-03, 12:12PM   #1
zedo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Aluminum D-port heads ?

Rumor has it that an aftermarket Pontiac vendor is tooling up to develop aluminum D-port heads.

Although the original D-port heads have a huge following in the street ranks, and some reside in some fast race cars, making aluminum D-port heads IMO, is pure folly, from an engineering standpoint. Let me explain why.

Any improvements or technical advances with Pontiac cylinder heads, should be focused on improving the valve arrangement, porting, and combustion chamber. This means that any true advances would include CANTED VALVE/SPLAYED VALVE HEADS, HEMI or FAST-BURN combustion chambers, and SYMMETRICAL port arrangements. If someone wanted to get really fancy, a SOHC or DOHC setup would be really hi-tech.

Making an aluminum D-port head would be a step backward, technically speaking. Even if the heads DID flow equal to an E-head, the siamesed ports, wedge chamber, and in-line valve arrangement is a limiting factor.

Look at the front running SBC heads. The best heads from GM now, have canted valves, symmetrical port layout, in other words, no siamesed intake port pairs, no siamesed center exhaust ports. This way every port can look/flow the same, end result more HP. And no heat buildup on the center exhaust ports. A straighter shot at the valve. In effect, BBC heads for a small-block.

An aluminum D-port head may SELL, but that doesn't mean it would be any better than the current E-head. Edelbrock has been doing this a LOT longer, and has a lot more $$ behind them, then any Pontiac aftermart companies have. If we're going to have another aluminum cylinder head, why not make a better one, rather than an inferior or equal one ??

Mickey Thompson tooled up his own heads for a Pontiac back in the early 1960's. What arrangement did he choose ?? A HEMI HEAD, with splayed valves, made from aluminum. I've yet to see an aftermarket head that even approaches that one in combustion chamber design or valve/port arrangement. And that one was made in 1962.

If we're gonna copy a head, copy a RA V or M/T hemi head, why copy the bottom of the barrel D-port head ?? Just cuz we'll sell more of those ?? Not a good reason from the consumer standpoint.

Then comes the "where will it be made" question. If it's made overseas, I don't want it, no matter how good it is !
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 12:25PM   #2
GTOGURU
Registered User
 
GTOGURU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Shelby, Ohio
Posts: 70
Default

Kauffmans are making an aluminum D port head. I was there last week and saw the prototype. They are also making their own billet race heads that they are testing on their own cars that are supposed to be better than the Super Chief heads. I also looked at their CNC machine which was machining an aluminum head while I was there. Those guys will do it right. Jim
GTOGURU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 01:58PM   #3
Bruce Meyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Peoria, Az
Posts: 22
Default

Whats next aluminum 301 heads? Or maybe a new flathead for Pontiacs. What a waste of time!
Zedo-Why copy a d-port? So all the babys that cry about the price of Round port headers can use their $ 60.00 d-port headers. Then again those monkey brains cant even afford aftermarket heads to begin with but now they can brag to their friends that they are saving up for some "awesome d-ports".
What a joke!
Bruce Meyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 04:29PM   #4
zedo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Points well made all around. Kaufman is good people in my book, met them at MG a few years back, and they always come back. There is no doubt a market where street guys want new heads, but prefer D-ports, cuz they are familiar. Not better.

#2, the clamor of the "D-port vs. E-head" threads has drawn enough attention that investors believe, there's money to be made there ? I was in a few of those threads. The biggest gripe with the street crowd was, their existing headers didn't fit E-heads. And the intake port match was not right out of the box, with a stock-type intake. OK, but if you make those 2 things match, you basically have a stock D-port flowing head, made of aluminum. Gain will only be a few pounds lighter, for a head that is harder for head gaskets to seal, cuz its aluminum. And remember, aluminum loses heat faster, and has to flow more than an iron head, to match it's performance. So the flow increase with aluminum, must be GREAT, not slight.

FYI HEMI chambers are very expensive to make, each chamber has to be machined to that shape. That's why Chrysler stopped making them, twice. They also require an elaborate rocker arrangement, and radical pushrod angles. OHC/SOHC heads would be exceedingly expensive and out of the reach of most people.

That leaves a canted-valve wedge head, with a high port alignment and symmetrical ports, as the best choice. If it's a race only head, make intake and headers for it. OK, then what you have is, a RA V or Wenzler type head, in that there are no gaskets/intakes/headers commonly available for it at the local parts house.

Bottom line- to really move the Pontiac engine into the 21st century, and make it competitive with other makes inch for inch, we need a completely new top end. Someone has to tool up, cast, and machine HEADS and INTAKES, and also MAKE HEADERS to fit the popular GTO/Firebird/GP/Catalina body styles.

A tall order, but it could be done. If all the R&D $$ that was spent on developing new Chinese cranks/rods, and domestic blocks/heads- was instead spent on an ENTIRE NEW TOP END with canted valves, we would WAY AHEAD right now. Problem is, they keep making heads to fit existing headers and intake patterns. IMO THAT'S A BIG MISTAKE in engineering terms. They are designing new parts for a 1955 exhaust pattern, and 1965 intake pattern. :rolleyes:

Like an old time racer/engine builder/mechanic used to tell me, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken $hit..." ...it may be "profitable" to sell this old design stuff to restorers, or newbies in the hobby, but how bout some TECHNICAL ADVANCES already ?? No one has moved the Pontiac engine beyond the 1979 design stage, except for Larry Wenzler. Engines with his stuff on them are running high 7's-low 8's on the motor. So that was a step in the right direction. It needs to be perfected.

Time will tell ! The capabilities of CNC machining are awesome, we'll see...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 06:09PM   #5
Steve C
Verified User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: .
Posts: 996
Default

So quick to judge! Get the facts first... it's not a copy of a factory design.
It has a revised combustion chamber shape and runner design.
Steve C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 06:46PM   #6
1bad70
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
herdswoman:..Some of the information in this thread doesn't match up with the various conversations I'd had with Jeff and Mark at Cordova and at the shop the week before. For the sake of clarity and accuracy, I sent Jeff an email and asked him to answer a few questions for me. Figured I'd share his responses with all of you:

"The price for bare heads we're looking at is $1200."

"Chamber size will be similar to E-heads approximately 65 as cast and 82 CNC machined."

"Exhaust manifolds will be just fine. If you're running a 400 - pump gas will be just fine. With a better combustion chamber you can get away with more compression because of the faster, higher, more efficient burn rate. This is why the chamber is smaller for more squish area, heart shaped chamber and plug location is different."

"Have looked into the divider burning through. This material is a lot better then the older stuff which will help right there. Second we included alot of material around center exhaust for heat dissipation. And you will need to run a 4 tube header or manifold to help this problem. No junky 3 tube headers. If the head does give us problems we will machine a steel insert into the head. Problem solved."

My last question was point blank - If I have a perfectly good set of D ports, why would I buy KRE Alum. D's instead of porting what I already have?

"Mostly the head is for people that are planning on building from nothing. But if you had a set, you're porting a 30 or 40 year old heads. Is that what you want? There is always a risk of breaking into a water jacket that has been eroding for that amount of time."

As for me, I'd love to see what a set of aluminum D ports would do compared to the KRE ported D heads we have currently on the 400 in our '65. The '65 is very consistent, very reproducible and we race it on pump gas. Fill 'er up at the grocery store before going to the track. It would make for an interesting experiment......hmmm. But then again, I'm kind of a science nerd - even listen to Science Friday on NPR.

Great stuff coming onto the market from a lot of different sources - great time to be building Pontiacs!
It's a joke is right, I bought my Edelbrock heads from PAW for 936.00.
Notice he says, if there's a problem then we'll fix it. Guys it's all about
making BUCKS, and bull s.hiting the public sucking in the younger generation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 07:17PM   #7
Street Poncho
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Is my hero ( Jim Hand ) buying a set of New Aluminum D-Port's
just think he won't need (tootle-lean)anymore. Tom Hand can write
an article about what it's like running with out tootle-lean and
how the fumes coming through aren't as bad :rolleyes: :oops: :shock:
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 11:22PM   #8
zedo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Coombes
So quick to judge! Get the facts first... it's not a copy of a factory design.
It has a revised combustion chamber shape and runner design.


Steve, I'm not judging. Just giving facts. Logic dictates that they would improve the chamber design. And the runners. Good. MY POINT IS they can only do so much if it's a D-port, cuz guys are going to want to fit the stock intakes and exhaust manifolds on those heads.

My 1991 Saturn has a DOHC Hemi engine with 4-valves per cylinder

My 1995 Grand Prix has a DOHC Hemi engine with 4-valves per cylinder.

Over in the Ford camp, they are RE-RELEASING the FORD GT-40 Lemans race car to the public, it will have 500 HP. It will be called the Ford GT, and is slated for 2004.

In the meantime, here we are getting aluminum D-port heads. Hey, I'm not complaining, it's better than nothing. But you can only do SO MUCH with a revised port and chamber, on a D-port design. Just ask the racers. Most admit up front, a pair of good RA IV heads are worth 2-3 tenths over an all-out D-port head.

And to boot, these may cost MORE THAN E-heads ?? I hope that price is complete w/valves, cuz they'll be hard to sell at that price.

By reading the above posts, I believe they are planning for the future, when even iron D-ports become scarce. Enter the aluminum D-port head- ok, good idea. That same logic brought us the cast iron Eagle/offshore cranks. They didn't go over as expected. Yet.

GM assembly lines ran 3 shifts, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 25 years, making Pontiac engines. There's a lot more cores out there, than people realize. I'm convinced we'll all be dead and gone, and there'll still be D-port heads in junk yards. Heck, I can find flathead Fords and early 1950's nailheads still.

Thomas Edison's first invention, a vote counting machine for Congress, was refused- he couldn't sell it. He swore from that time on, he'd never invent another thing, that people didn't want. Sound advice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-03, 11:47PM   #9
ta455
MASTER JIM
 
ta455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: walnutport pa
Posts: 475
Default

ROTARY VALVE HEADS

they would relieve alot of stress from the valve train as none of it would be used . no valves to restrict flow . and flow is only limited by how large you make the holes in the rotary valve shafts and could be designed to bolt to intakes and exhaust setups already in use today
ta455 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-03, 01:28AM   #10
GTOGURU
Registered User
 
GTOGURU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Shelby, Ohio
Posts: 70
Default

Price quote on the aluminum D-port was in the $2100-2300 range but not set as yet. Thats ready to rock. Not a bad price for heads with all the good stuff. If the Kauffmans could not make a significantally better head than Edelbrock then I dont think they would even bother with it. You can believe whatever you read but I have been to their shop several times and they know what they are doing. I believe they have a friends Firebird running in the 6's with a billet head of their own design. I give credit where credit is due. Pretty amazing what these farm boys from Ohio are doing. Jim
GTOGURU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-03, 03:01AM   #11
admin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

***I believe they have a friends Firebird running in the 6's with a billet head of their own design***

Hum? that's interesting, what kind of car is this Firebird, tube chassis?
Any power adders, like blower, trubo's ? What's this Firebird weigh?.
I'm not saying they don't have a guy in the 6's but sense it's been a big deal about Butler's twin trubo getting into the 6's which it hasn't,
don't you think every buddy would have known if they did, I mean that
would be the biggest thing ever, them running faster the Butler, that
would be pretty exciting.



Why would any one spend 2300.00 on a D-port head ? it's a known fact
there's psychically no way it could ever out flow an E-Head. I have a D-port head all cut up, and there's no way with out going through to the water
jackets. In some areas it's also not possible to add material, unless you don't plain on passing water through the head.

Even having a better chamber isn't going to inprove that head enough to make it worth 2300.00. Christ I don't even have that much invested in
my CNC E-heads.

I took another look at the cut up head, the divider is going to be a big problem. They claim better meaterial, I mean whats better then T-6 aluminum.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-03, 08:30PM   #12
zedo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It all boils down to, what will the new head flow. If the numbers are less than an E-head, they may be hard to sell. I surely wouldn't be in line for a pair that flowed less. Let me explain why. A complete set of Edelbrocks, that most likely flow more, is only around $1600. That's a common sense assessment. I have nothing against Kaufman's, I spent some time over at their trailer talking to the dad, very good, stand up people.

A chamber alone is not going to make the head a world beater. You need the port flow too. As we all know, stock D-port heads have a horseshoe shaped exhaust port, and are deficient in relation to the intake flow. If the stock exhaust manifold pattern/location is retained, that will be the limiting factor- same as the original D-port design.

You can't just wave a magic wand, and make a D-port flow big numbers. Mickey Thompson was doing what Edelbrock, Wenzler, and Kaufmans are doing- but 40 years ago. Did he keep the D-port design for his record setting dragsters ?? NO. He cast his own Hemi head, for the Pontiac engine. And even that had a very small market.

A canted valve head would go over MUCH better. I should just release one myself. Whenever I see another aftermarket Pontiac head with inline valves, it just makes me wonder, WTH is designing this stuff.

Here's the pecking order, from best to worst, in that order:

HEMI head

CANTED VALVE WEDGE head

INLINE VALVE WEDGE head

For some reason, Pontiac thinking, except for Mickey Thompson, has always been directed toward the least effective design. (Mickey was way ahead of his time). In the meantime, Top Fuel and Funny Cars run the Hemi, and Pro Stocks run the canted valve wedge. :?:
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-03, 08:32PM   #13
zedo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ps- even my Weed Eater grass trimmer and Cox model car, have Hemi heads. no lie.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-03, 12:20AM   #14
GTOGURU
Registered User
 
GTOGURU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Shelby, Ohio
Posts: 70
Default

The 6 second car is basically a pro-stock type Firebird @2600 pounds. Has a blown 500" IA block with Kauffmans own heads and intake. Think it had a Lenco trans. Told it was making 1700 HP. The trans blew up at Cordova. Dont know if they ever got a good run in before that happenned.
GTOGURU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-03, 01:14AM   #15
Gach
Administrator
 
Gach's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ....
Posts: 18,617
Default

Did you see this car run 6 second passes?
Gach is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
These are some bad ass heads. shepherd1 Engine Tech Discussion - Street or Strip 1 10-29-10 12:12AM
Port Volumes vs. cfm Gach Engine Tech Discussion - Street or Strip 128 01-27-10 12:26PM
Aftermarket Cylinder head stack ranking discussion Bruce Wilkie Engine Tech Discussion - Street or Strip 119 12-15-08 01:51PM
too much VELOCITY causes port STALL, SONIC- interesting... zedo Engine Tech Discussion - Street or Strip 13 06-18-08 11:36AM
KRE's Aluminum Heads, update. admin1 Aftermarket News & Products 238 02-05-07 11:22AM


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 11:45AM.

Featured Ads
Ken's Speed & Machine
Mayhem Turbocharging

Carter Cryogenics.  What can we freeze for you?

Pacific Performance Racing

Central Virginia Machine Service.  Home of the Injun Engine!

All Pontiac Engine Kits

Larry's Auto Machine.  Full serivce auto, marine machine shop, domestic and foreign.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2007 PontiacZone.com
Page generated in 0.14135 seconds with 43 queries