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Old 12-14-08, 01:45PM   #91
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Originally Posted by jpizza5711 View Post
just back from pri show.saw kre 's new head it looks to have great potenial
saw some issues with it but it is just a proto type and more work will be done on it.also they had a hemi head there that is a proto design for pontiac.
saw pont.dude looking the wedge head over.









Pictures?
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Old 12-14-08, 02:46PM   #92
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Bruce Did you get myEmail on the LSM cam Don
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Old 12-14-08, 03:06PM   #93
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I believe all the regulars on this site know what heads are out there and what those heads can do. So I assume that this list is meant for the newbe. Most people just started out have tendency to think if some is good then more must be better. Well when you rank the heads by flow what do you think will attract their attention? But its your ranking system and your list.
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Old 12-14-08, 04:25PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
SDs 572 dyno mule will shed some light on the best Pontiac head question. Built with pistons cut for the CV-1 it will give a direct compairison of power,not head cfm on the same dyno. All the "race" heads will be run against each other. Tigers vs Wide Ports vs stock CV-1s vs CNC std High Ports vs ported Tigers vs CVC CV-1s vs relocated pushrod High Ports.
It will be very interesting to say the least. Much like their steet E head vs cnc KRE D Port test but on a higher level.
And a similar test of Pontiac "street" heads will be done on a factory block dyno mule.
Then we will get some more info on ranking the Pontiac heads.
I can't see how it could be...it'll be just another dyno motor which really means shit. Might just as well be West Tech dyno. Remember it's his dyno...and it will sir round the head he has packaged to sell the most and gets the best deal on. To truly make a comparison each combo would have to optimized including right intake...right cam...and carb. pistons. Now unless SD is a millionaire and is willing to provide 6-7 different cams...and intakes pistons..it will be total bull shit. It's already proven fact the Tiger head will need the new Tiger intake
as well as a cam with the 4-7 swap...The CV-1 will also need it's own intake...as well as the High Port...just to many variables to make a true comparison.

PS: Not only will the pistons need to be cut for the CV-1 heads but will also need the right
valve angles for the tiger heads which I believe are 12 degrees instead of 14 degrees..how are they going to supply all that...right pistons for each head..right cam...right intake...and were is all this going to fit in torque wise for the right convertor. What application will it fit...street car pump gas ? race gas...and what compression will be optimize for each head if it is pump gas. Some head may like 11.1 some may even like 12.1 on 93 octane...Waaaay to many variables. I hope it doesn't turn out like their D-port vs Edelbrock head comparison with a blank
statement ( because the D-port herat shape chamber requires less timming ) it'll make more
power....inject laughter. When it should read because we get a better deal on D-port casting
it's a better head.
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Old 12-14-08, 05:11PM   #95
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Always looking to poke holes Gach. It might not be the end word but if you think its going to be a biased one way, scew the numbers to sell only the KRE heads to make the most money for themselves you are wrong.
They are doing it on thier dime and it is going to helpfull to many making thier head decitions. SD has more orders than they can fill. Its not like they are trying to scrape up work,they have plenty.
SD are head porters, and to you that makes them bad or something. Its going to take head porters to get the most out of your beloved CV-1s.
Instead of being thankfull they are doing a test like this,its not cheap by the way you are trying to make it some kind of pull the wool over peoples eyes deal. They are SD Performance and why wouldnt they have several cams to try. Maybe I will just buy one for myself and let them test my heads. A dyno run is not going to wear out a cam and heads.
I know thier are many variables,and SD knows the CV-1 is going to like a Ford style high lift with less duration type cam. But do you know of any other outfit trying to do a test like this and making it public?
If I do buy another roller its going to be a 4/7 swap with .750 lift and .285 @ .050. A real cam. I wonder if a stud girdle ans Norris SS roller rockers are going to be the ticket or will I have to call up and make the plunge for a T&D std. shaft rocker. The exhaust flows so good I can go with a sigal pattern cam.
Bruce, if I could I would. But per agreement I have to wait until SD posts it on thier website first. I just wish they would get on the ball with it. But trust me, when the final numbers for flow and prices get public thier wont be any real reason to go with a Edelbrock Wide Port anymore as this head will beat it in terms of flow and money spent and will equal as cast CV-1s. Unless you cant stand the thought of a KRE product and there are people like that.
If someone were smart they would take some of Bartons High Port works of art, like the 450 cfm oval port heads and digitize it so it is repeatable. I wonder what it would take to get the OK for that or if he would have a problem with it being done. Grinding on heads by hand must get old.
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Old 12-14-08, 05:30PM   #96
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Dragncar: they've had a set of CV-1's for over 8 months...now if they are head porters...why has it take 8 months and STILL haven't come up with any opinion on the CV-1 head. I'll tell you why....if you can buy casting cheaper and have already work out a cookie cutter program to sell that particular head...you are simple to busy to even care about any other head...let me ask you this...where's all their R&D on the Tiger head...do they even have anyone running their Ported Tiger head...Nope have they sold any CV-1 heads ? nope. This tells me their goal is one particular head their living off the reputation...but things aren't what they once was.
At least these are the rumors going around.

All I got from one guy who has sent them CV-1 heads...is they whack him
an additional $1700.00 and took 4 over months to get them done.
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Old 12-14-08, 05:46PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wilkie View Post
I'm taking my sweet time assembling but parts and labor were available to thrash if need be. I once went from blown engine on a friday evening to another rebuilt motor for the following weekend working from salvageable parts from the top end and a complete rebuilt shortblock and running the following friday plus work my regular job so I know it can be done if need be, and done correctly(I had ZERO issues). It takes a LOT of coordination focus and cooperation of others to do so. It all starts with good planning.

My current build started with a goal and then determining what will be required to acheive that goal. You go from there. I knew I needed a cylinder head in the flow range of what I bought to acheive the power level I desired. I certainly didnt need or could I physically accomodate a 535 cfm Eliminator head on my production block. I focused on choices that best fit my needs.

Part of my final choice was finding out another head that had a BBC style ex port and equal to better future potential, would require major chassis mods to fit headers in an already very cramped engine bay.

Somebodys list DIDNT say that, I had to call to find that out. I want our list to be better. I want people to be able to find out easily that the certain head they thought they wanted is going to need costly additional port work to acheive their goal or not be able to use on hand already owned parts.

Someone could do a sticky in the proven combos thread outlining cost effective ways to acheive desired goals using examples from within that thread. Not everyone knows there are a multitude number of ways to get to certain performance levels and some are much more practical and cost effective.

Hopefully the head info will prevent someone wanting/needing the performance capability of an as cast CV1 for example, from spending money on max wideporting a set of eheads they dont allready own or have the ability to do themselves and porting the intake etc to match. Those like you that have the ability tools etc. and dont have the labor costs involved can make more choices.

I WILL put a note ahead of the advertised flow ordered summary to NOT choose on flow only and WHY. (real soon). I want to keep it in that order vs speculative horse power order or name order which would have you jump all over looking for details of heads of a certain ability. You have to have a target cfm to determine suitability for hp required to determine if you can meet or exceed your performance goal. You certainly dont want to be looking at an as cast KRE Dport if your looking for 800+ hp capability. And you certainly dont want a 450 cfm Tiger head for your 450 hp street cruiser. We will all know in short order if a head advertised at a certain cfm delivers performance as advertised flow number indicates and the list will show it in the details.
That post, to me, sheds more light for the people less in the know. Maybe all or part of it can be thrown into the sticky for "explanation" sake of the list.

Chris.
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Old 12-14-08, 05:51PM   #98
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dragncar...are you that naive..to think one test with a 572 ci can be
done and be accurate. With all these variables

Tiger heads will need different pistons then any other head...also will need
the new Tiger intake and a cam with a 4-7 swap.

CV-1 will also need different valve cuts...differen't cam...intake..will
both of these be tested with rocker shafts needed to have good valve
train stability.

Wide Ports will need off set lifters...rocker shaft...it's one intake and
yes right cam to optimize.

High Ports...different intake...cam...rocker shafts. All of these will need
very different carbs..different cfm requirements.

Each head is going to need all of these things...it's just commen sence..
so how do you come up with I'm trying to poke holes in their testing
it's figging commen sence my friend. Me's think you don't like the fact
I've pointed this all out...you would like them to live off their reputation
for everyone to think...God if they do this test it must be true and we
are to believe it. Sorry but it's to obvious for it to be a real fair test.
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Old 12-14-08, 05:54PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach View Post
I can't see how it could be...it'll be just another dyno motor which really means shit. Might just as well be West Tech dyno. Remember it's his dyno...and it will sir round the head he has packaged to sell the most and gets the best deal on. To truly make a comparison each combo would have to optimized including right intake...right cam...and carb. pistons. Now unless SD is a millionaire and is willing to provide 6-7 different cams...and intakes pistons..it will be total bull shit. It's already proven fact the Tiger head will need the new Tiger intake
as well as a cam with the 4-7 swap...The CV-1 will also need it's own intake...as well as the High Port...just to many variables to make a true comparison.

PS: Not only will the pistons need to be cut for the CV-1 heads but will also need the right
valve angles for the tiger heads which I believe are 12 degrees instead of 14 degrees..how are they going to supply all that...right pistons for each head..right cam...right intake...and were is all this going to fit in torque wise for the right convertor. What application will it fit...street car pump gas ? race gas...and what compression will be optimize for each head if it is pump gas. Some head may like 11.1 some may even like 12.1 on 93 octane...Waaaay to many variables. I hope it doesn't turn out like their D-port vs Edelbrock head comparison with a blank
statement ( because the D-port herat shape chamber requires less timming ) it'll make more
power....inject laughter. When it should read because we get a better deal on D-port casting
it's a better head.
I was thinking the same thing. The thing it can do is show people not "in the know" what works or doesn't and the possible "off combo" that can be a result of it. It does follow the "ranking thread" format. But I guess that it can still make some people happy because if they never had any "real big" HP motor, they may not know the difference. Basically, how would they know if they were loosing 50 to 100 HP. They won't. Because 700HP is better than 400. I think I got that point off........???
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Old 12-14-08, 06:02PM   #100
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Dragncar:

Quote:
If I do buy another roller its going to be a 4/7 swap with .750 lift and .285 @ .050. A real cam. I wonder if a stud girdle ans Norris SS roller rockers are going to be the ticket or will I have to call up and make the plunge for a T&D std. shaft rocker.
Come see me when you get past the 780 hp mark..with your High Ports, and have real track numbers...to prove it. You just might get you butt kick by those out dated Wide Ports....
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Old 12-14-08, 06:08PM   #101
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Sleeper 67...the article will make good toilet paper. Unless we point out
it CAN'T be done and be accurate.
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Old 12-14-08, 06:12PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
Always looking to poke holes Gach. It might not be the end word but if you think its going to be a biased one way, scew the numbers to sell only the KRE heads to make the most money for themselves you are wrong.
They are doing it on thier dime and it is going to helpfull to many making thier head decitions. SD has more orders than they can fill. Its not like they are trying to scrape up work,they have plenty.
SD are head porters, and to you that makes them bad or something. Its going to take head porters to get the most out of your beloved CV-1s.
Instead of being thankfull they are doing a test like this,its not cheap by the way you are trying to make it some kind of pull the wool over peoples eyes deal. They are SD Performance and why wouldnt they have several cams to try. Maybe I will just buy one for myself and let them test my heads. A dyno run is not going to wear out a cam and heads.
I know thier are many variables,and SD knows the CV-1 is going to like a Ford style high lift with less duration type cam. But do you know of any other outfit trying to do a test like this and making it public?
If I do buy another roller its going to be a 4/7 swap with .750 lift and .285 @ .050. A real cam. I wonder if a stud girdle ans Norris SS roller rockers are going to be the ticket or will I have to call up and make the plunge for a T&D std. shaft rocker. The exhaust flows so good I can go with a sigal pattern cam.
Bruce, if I could I would. But per agreement I have to wait until SD posts it on thier website first. I just wish they would get on the ball with it. But trust me, when the final numbers for flow and prices get public thier wont be any real reason to go with a Edelbrock Wide Port anymore as this head will beat it in terms of flow and money spent and will equal as cast CV-1s. Unless you cant stand the thought of a KRE product and there are people like that.
If someone were smart they would take some of Bartons High Port works of art, like the 450 cfm oval port heads and digitize it so it is repeatable. I wonder what it would take to get the OK for that or if he would have a problem with it being done. Grinding on heads by hand must get old.
That would be an issue for Dan to decide and sell if he wants. Problem you get is the possible "theft" of design if someone copied it. All I can say is not all head porters are alike. There are the ones who can do a port that makes power with some more air, and it can work better than what may be currently out there. Then you have the ones who understand the dynamics of it and may be able to make a port work better without even doing much to the head. Plus to try to work it within the parameters of parts available instead of looking for "band aids" to make something work. There is alot of power to be made with a lesser flowing port, the quest for more air just helps something less efficient make it there.
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Old 12-14-08, 06:18PM   #103
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Sleeper 67...the article will make good toilet paper. Unless we point out
it CAN'T be done and be accurate.
C'mon man......toilet paper.....out house.... In all seriousness though, let them have it, and let others read it and make their decisions. There will be fast cars out there. But there will allways be faster. Whatever makes everyone happy. We can push the envelope ourselves, and reap the rewards. I have found, you can't help everyone.

Chris.
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Old 12-14-08, 06:41PM   #104
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I can't wait until Dan Barton gets his hands on the new Tiger head.
I think we'll find the High Port won't be in the same league. It'll be
Far less work and have the capabilty of making awesome power.
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Old 12-14-08, 07:03PM   #105
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Gach, my car is not going to see 9s anytime soon. Too much work to make it right. You throw around the 780 (corrected dyno) numbers all the time. Give us actual. Someone is going to top 800 HP with the SD CNC HPs easy.
I am well aware of all the variables but even withthe variables the test is still worth doing.
The race head test is race gas as far as I know.
SD does not have a giant past reputation. The way I see it it is all on the come, in the future.
They are developing or have repeatable CNC programs for the KRE D Port, High Port, Factory HOs and D ports, Edelbrock std pushrod and Wide Ports(the best wide ports by the way). I never had a idea of how much work goes into developing a CNC program. I do now. And they have not even started on the wide port version of the High Port yet.
They have Tiger and CV-1 test heads and have plans on developing CNC programs for them too.
Who else is doing all this?. I will tell you who else, no one.
Its called serious investments in tooling and equipment for the future.
I am not sure what you mean by the reputation of one head. Which one is that? The E head, one of 3-4 differant vertions, the KRE D Port or now the KRE High Port.
Its about too them, the best head for the application. Not trying to make a certain type of head that they make the most money on shoved into a one size fits all deal. The right head for the right situation. It does not matter to them,had that conversation.
You look for the smallest little thing and try and make it into a mountain.
Anyone not named uncle Tony is suspect to you.
We are Pontiac people, they are on our side. Its a good thing Gach,not a bad one.
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