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Old 12-14-08, 07:41PM   #91
Gach
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I can't wait until Dan Barton gets his hands on the new Tiger head.
I think we'll find the High Port won't be in the same league. It'll be
Far less work and have the capabilty of making awesome power.
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Old 12-14-08, 08:03PM   #92
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Gach, my car is not going to see 9s anytime soon. Too much work to make it right. You throw around the 780 (corrected dyno) numbers all the time. Give us actual. Someone is going to top 800 HP with the SD CNC HPs easy.
I am well aware of all the variables but even withthe variables the test is still worth doing.
The race head test is race gas as far as I know.
SD does not have a giant past reputation. The way I see it it is all on the come, in the future.
They are developing or have repeatable CNC programs for the KRE D Port, High Port, Factory HOs and D ports, Edelbrock std pushrod and Wide Ports(the best wide ports by the way). I never had a idea of how much work goes into developing a CNC program. I do now. And they have not even started on the wide port version of the High Port yet.
They have Tiger and CV-1 test heads and have plans on developing CNC programs for them too.
Who else is doing all this?. I will tell you who else, no one.
Its called serious investments in tooling and equipment for the future.
I am not sure what you mean by the reputation of one head. Which one is that? The E head, one of 3-4 differant vertions, the KRE D Port or now the KRE High Port.
Its about too them, the best head for the application. Not trying to make a certain type of head that they make the most money on shoved into a one size fits all deal. The right head for the right situation. It does not matter to them,had that conversation.
You look for the smallest little thing and try and make it into a mountain.
Anyone not named uncle Tony is suspect to you.
We are Pontiac people, they are on our side. Its a good thing Gach,not a bad one.
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Old 12-14-08, 08:35PM   #93
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Quote:
Gach, my car is not going to see 9s anytime soon. Too much work to make it right. You throw around the 780 (corrected dyno) numbers all the time. Give us actual. Someone is going to top 800 HP with the SD CNC HPs easy.
See that's my whole point...I wasn't trying to be cocky and rag on you
I said that to prove a point. Just because you have High Ports which ported is better then a Wide Port...dosen't mean to much. You might have a heavier car..or lighter. But working out the who combination and getting
the power to the ground is a whole differen't story. You could have the
same weight car with better flowing High Port heads...but I might have a better worked out total combination and still be faster. What guys are
looking for is...how much faster can I go with a High Port over my Wide
Ports..what will I have to change in my combination..what will it cost.
Will it all be worth it...who do I believe.

I've always said my uncorrected HP was 720 hp...never once said 780 hp.
You can do the math..my car weighs 3360 lbs I weigh it. I ran so far 9.45
@ 140 mph. We never pulled the motor past 6500 rpms @ 6500 it made
761 hp. I used the uncorrected numbers to tell me whether or not it would
run a high 9. Yes it was in the best condidtions. All your talk about SD High Ports show me some on 93 octane running that fast...their ant any.
I'm sure we'll probably see some. But untill I do SD's high ports are all hype
to me. See what I'm saying..I'lll tell you what I'll even be their test bed hows that...tell them Gach said...lets see some real numbers...screw them
dyno numbers. I'll bolt on a set of their best High Ports and lets see if
they are what they say. Dosen't get any better then that. Real proof.

Same car same weight..back to back test...hell I've even do it on the
same day.
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Old 12-14-08, 08:49PM   #94
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SD has said, and I am sure they will again, that they make more money off of selling E Heads over D Ports because the E heads seats are good. But they put their own in for the D Ports.

Flow doesn't mean squat without shape. The head is what makes power but the combo does have to be built to work with it. Then there is a look at the longevity of the combo. Anyone running .800+ lift should be prepared to spend more on maintenance than a once a season freshen. Especially if on the street, parts won't last long at that lift cruisin on the street.

The list will have to include so much info including proven combos for it to be a good tool. Otherwise, it's just like any other advertisment.
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Old 12-14-08, 10:00PM   #95
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Dragncar: I wasn't trying to suggest SD numbers
Are dishonest, I've talks to many who's had heads done
By them so I believe they are definitely good
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Old 12-14-08, 10:45PM   #96
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Default Aftermarket Cylinder head stack ranking discussion

Quote:
SDs 572 dyno mule will shed some light on the best Pontiac head question. Built with pistons cut for the CV-1 it will give a direct compairison of power,not head cfm on the same dyno. All the "race" heads will be run against each other. Tigers vs Wide Ports vs stock CV-1s vs CNC std High Ports vs ported Tigers vs CVC CV-1s vs relocated pushrod High Ports.
It will be very interesting to say the least. Much like their steet E head vs cnc KRE D Port test but on a higher level.
And a similar test of Pontiac "street" heads will be done on a factory block dyno mule.
Then we will get some more info on ranking the Pontiac heads.


This is what bugs the shit out of me about you dragncar. This post isn't about SD but you always seem to make it about them and their CNC program the "center of actaction". Which has been talked about for a whole year now and still...NOTHING..... Zero....Zilch. in the way of imformation.

Every post you make whether it's on this board or P-Y centers around
SD. You find away to put down all the other heads. Your like a walking bill board for SD Performance and it's getting old...already. It's like you would have us believe their test is the only one that counts. I'll bet you masturbate thinking about SD.

Jeff Kinsley ( sp ) has a set of Butler Wide Ports and has made over 900 hp and the first to ever do that with a Wide Port...but I guess you don't pay attention..so tell me how SD has the best Wide Ports in the world..better still prove it...where's these cars running SD Wide Ports making 900 hp. Do a search on Dragncar and tell me that every single
post he's made isn't about SD Performance.
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Old 12-14-08, 10:52PM   #97
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I think what Bruce is trying to accomplish is great but unfortunately it'll be very difficult to satisfy everyone. While I love the idea of having all our SD CNC packages included I don't think it's fair to other builders who put out a great hand ported product. Bruce I understand your reasoning but we're a small 3 person operation that have a hard time keeping up with demand in the spring typically and while we are working towards having ready to assemble completely machined, hand finished and flow tested heads on the shelf at all times we aren't there yet but lately have been able to get some of our street packages out the door in a matter of a few weeks. My point is in some cases we may not be able to supply heads any quicker then a builder hand porting heads, I think maybe listing reliable sources to contact for some of the different ported heads that have real world proven results might be a better way but that's just my opinion and the last thing I want to do is make your very difficult task more difficult.

Gach I get it you don't like us no matter what we do, yup we have a set of CV-1 castings here and unfortunately I haven't had time to dig into them the way I want to. I have a wife and 3 young boys to feed and spend what little free time I do have with them. If you had any clue on how much work it is to keep a business like this going you maybe would have a bit of a different tone in your responses about what we are doing over here. We are a small little humble business made up of Pontiac nuts, and I mean nuts because if you knew the hours we all put in and what we actually pay ourselves you'd be shocked. Why do we do it? Because we love this hobby and we love the awesome customers we get to deal with every day and the fact that the quest to make more power in more effective ways is never ending which is my personal drive. Guess what 90% of our customers aren't trying to build 800hp pump gas 505-541's and have no interest in HP's CV-1's or Tiger heads since they are looking to build more like 500-600hp hyd. roller pump gas stock block engines they can drive every day.

I realize the testing we are planning using our 572ci shortblock isn't going to answer everything by a long shot, I realize I will need to consult with others on a correct approach with camshaft selection for the CV-1, I realize we will have to do the test mutiple times with different cams to gain some real perspective on how each head behaves and where it shines, I realize more then ever whatever the results are you'll find nothing good to say about the tests and personally you can go pound sand!!!

The reason for the testing is to get some real data instead of hype, read data not all the answers. Do you see us pushing the KRE HP head yet? No because we haven't tested it yet, we don't think it's the end all either but will have it's place along with the CV-1 and Tiger head. I have actually done a set of Tiger Heads but the customer hasn't completed the project yet, the same customer is running some of our first wide port heads and has them on a 526IA block in a rear engine dragster that runs 7.60's with a single Dom. on a Victor on gas with around .700" valve lift and no crazy rpm, the guys name is Rod Page just in case you think I'm fabricating this like you claim all our dyno testing is BS. We do a lot more tests then you'll ever read about with the only objective of giving our customers better choices by gaining DATA!!!, obviously you'll never be one so you don't have to worry about it.

We have to invest the time in the products that most of our customers are looking for first (what people call looking for not what we imagine they are looking for) and then invest the time into the higher end stuff. As much as I'd like to be building the higher end stuff and be doing R&D all the time the reality is the market isn't there yet and may not ever get there at least that's what we see based of actual customer inquiries. We've had a set of HP for over 2 years now and are just getting dialed on offering our first package, this wasn't my intention but that's just how things go (go buy a 5axis CNC machine and learn how to use it and then get back to me, you might have a clue at that point) I'm the only guy working in the shop, I do all the port work personally and I create all the CNC programs personally.

GACH FOR THE LAST TIME, the Edelbrock head is a more profitable package for us, we recommend the KRE D-port head for a lot of street strip application because we feel it's a better choice for those applications. We are working on some new Edelbrock programs also, if all we wanted to sell was KRE heads why the hell would I sink a ton of time into new Edelbrock programs!!!

Gach you really need to get a grip on reality and quit trying to make us into the bad guys that are supposedly doing stuff the way we are doing it for the almighty dollar. If it was about money I wouldn't be doing this business period, SD Performance is about passion for the traditional Pontiac V8 with an objective of growing this hobby by working with other builders and offering a great product at a fair price and that's it. I'm not a polititian and hate politics so please leave the crap to CNN and let's work at building this hobby instead of bashing anyone who is doing something that may be different from what you think should be done.

I'm done carry on Bruce whatever you come up with I'm sure will be helpful to the newbie if you need any info from me just shoot me an e-mail and just like our testing it ain't going to please everyone especially Gach which doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort.

Dave
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Old 12-14-08, 11:25PM   #98
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Dave...your phone must have been ringing..hello...yeah Dave this is Dragncar...did you see what Gach was saying about you on P-Z. because
With in minutes of those post being made...your logging on..reading all my post.

Most of what I said is directed at Dragncar because of his constant
selling of your new CNC High Port program..you really need to have a
talk with that boy..better still do a search on Dragncar and read some
of his post...every single one is about SD Performance and how great they
are...it's getting old.

Now there's other vender's who provide heads...and I keep getting the same questions...why is SD allowed free advertising...I have the same answer...he's not...this guy is just in love with SD and thinks their the greatest thing since slice bread

So Dave your reading it all wrong..most of what I say is to piss off Draagncar...but I can see if your not a regular like most who are know
that's my intent. I don't dislike you..not at all...infect many members
can when asked to deside between others I have directed them to you
that's a fact..I could probably name 5 right now...and not one has been
disappointed with the results..sure their may have been a complaint about
how long it's taking to get their heads...but as I say..it happens with
the best of shops.

No contrary to what you may believe I personaly have the up most respect for you..Maybe you can find some time to contribute and give
your oipinon on some of these questions.

I'll ask you one....how much can I pick up over my Wide Ports with a set
of your High Ports. I've called and talked to Marcle on a price for HP
and he's never called me back...after 3 calls I gave up.
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Old 12-14-08, 11:56PM   #99
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Gach I don't know if I've ever talked to Dragncar personally (talk to too many people to remember) but I can assure you I came across this thread myself today and look at the BB's when I have a moment which isn't very often so if I came off a bit harsh I apologize and didn't see your last post till after I sent my first one. By the way I'm a big fan of Jeff Kinsler's but I don't have any customers who have a combo like his to compare to and the Butler wide port's have been proven to make power. Most guys using our wide ports are running around .700"-.725" net lift and flat top pistons and are making 830-850hp with those types of combo's.

I can appreciate customers enthusiasm for what we are doing over here and believe me it helps keep me focused and motivated but can see how it can be misconstrued as adverstising which I don't agree with.

We are still finalizing some stuff with the HP's and are waiting on castings from KRE. I don't know if your type of combo would benefit which is why I plan on doing some of our own testing with cams in the .700-.750" range to see if they gain anything as the wide port E-heads do flow more from .600" lift and down which is kind of what we've been seeing with some of the other higher end heads so I really don't think the wide port E-head is going to be dead because of the HP. I have a ton of engine projects I'm finalizing so the project is a bit on hold since we don't have any castings and I would like to do a set from scratch and test them as the ones we have here have seats installed and the chambers were already CNC machined. I have most of everything sourced out on the HP package but will be offering some options like beryllium/bronze/copper seats and still have some different valve seat cuts to experiment with.

I know turn around can still be an issue with us which is a constant focus over here and we are making changes to try and help that situation but when you are selling heads faster then we can build them sometimes it is inevitable that delivery times will grow.

I'll try to visit more often and contribute without advertising!! LOL

Dave
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Old 12-15-08, 12:27AM   #100
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i have never seen the likes of all the bull shit about different people and
the products they make for pontiacs. when i made my mind up to come
back to racing a pontiac i joined all the sites i could find about parts and
what was around for them .then i went and looked at every thing i could,talked to all companies and listened to what every one had to say
and then made my mind up as to what i would buy and use.i can say that
there were a few that i wouldn't give a glass of water to.but if you take what most say to you and use your brain you should be able to make power.
and yes it cost me money to go see stuff in person thanks to all that were
nice to me and helpful.
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Old 12-15-08, 12:32AM   #101
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Dave..that was very good and interesting information and thank you for being frank...and we welcome you with open arms to contribute...great information.

PS: you should be very proud of your work just as Jeff's is with his Wide ports...wink
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Old 12-15-08, 12:47AM   #102
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jpizza5711 good point and that's kind of the point I was trying to make about listing reputable sources, at the end of the day you need to do some of your own homework and make an informed decision. Having more choices then ever is great for the hobby but can be a bit confusing for someone just coming on board so what Bruce is trying to accomplish will be useful but will never be the end all which I don't think his intention is anyway.
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Old 12-15-08, 01:34AM   #103
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ok,enough Dave,now go back to work and finish my intake!LOL.Yom
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Old 12-15-08, 01:45AM   #104
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Ok Tom, I think I'm done with PZ anyway.

Should get it out this week.

Dave
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Old 12-15-08, 02:05AM   #105
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Dave....allot people value what you have to say...it would clear up
allot of things. Your post was excellent definitely cleared things up for
me. We don't hear much from people like you.

Believe it or not I'm trying to get good tech and get rid of the BS.
The very reason for this thread...someone is always going to come
along like Dragncar...who is well meaning in his intentions but some
times over dose it. Please if you can find some time contribute as
offend as you can.
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