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Old 05-26-07, 11:04PM   #61
Hugh Venables
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[Quote from Pontiac Jack: Hugh- I guess Rick must be away from these forums for a little bit- sure he'll be back. I just don't want you to think we aren't paying attention- I, for one, am reading every word. We're very fortunate to have your experience, and your willingness to share your knowledge and ideas.]
Thanks Jack, that means a lot to me. I'd hate to be seen as a smart alec Aussie clagging up the 'net.

Thanks Injuntom. For the record would you mind listing some more dimensions of that Pontiac V8 rod:
Year/model/engine identification
Big end bore dia.
Journal dia.
Rod width at big end
Piston pin dia and fit method
Center distance
Information like this is usually pretty hard to get unless you actually have one to measure.
Hugh.
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Old 05-27-07, 12:49AM   #62
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Hey guys,

Yes, I disappeared for a while. My job has me on the road quite a bit. My company manufactures and sells industrial power tools and I am the district manager for my state. This past week I was even out of state getting a week of training. Back now and ready to get down to business on puttin' a engine together. That is between the list of things to catch up on around the house and keeping family time caught up!

Hugh, great project you've got going on there with the Indy car. This week I plan to visit that shop I mentioned and see about getting the block, heads, etc. dipped to clean. Not sure of the acid-solution they use but they have cleaned engines for me before and they come back rust-free grey metal. I will need to talk to them about cleaning the cam, crank, and tappet shaft, not sure how that acid will work on those bearing surfaces.

I'm thinking a pair of McCulloch superchargers. Trying to find some specs on them first. Anyone have any experience with them? Could they produced too much boost? I looked at the modern Eaton superchargers used on Pontiacs, Buicks, etc. Not the look I'm going for. Want to stay with a 'interesting' vintage look. This exhaust, hell, this whole engine (pic) has me interested. As always, I'm open for any suggestions.

And, Hugh, I for one am proud to have a Oaky lovin' Aussie on my team! Keep the info comin' as long as you feel like typing!
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Old 05-27-07, 01:43AM   #63
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That's one WILD flatty roadster! Looks like somebody got so mad trying to access the distributor that they solved it the hard way- flipped the engine around backwards with the ignition out in the open! Looks like it was changed to a Harman-Collins magneto? Chain drive to each rear axle? Got any info on it? How'd they get eight pipes out of six exhaust ports?
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Old 05-27-07, 02:28AM   #64
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Hugh- In general, all Pontiac V8 rods are to the same blueprint (except 265/301 short-deck blocks). 6.625" center-to-center length, 2.250" journal diameter (2.375" rod I.D.), .995" wide big end, .980" diameter pin, 1.25" wide small-end, almost fore/aft symmetrical (except larger big-end chamfer one face, and slight offset of ends). Almost all were press-fit pins, except some '58-62 forged rods were bronze bushed. Most were cast, with the exception of '58-62 and some later SD rods. This blueprint shows 1139 alloy for '58-62 forgings, but other info has shown SAE 1140.
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Old 05-27-07, 02:06PM   #65
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That's one WILD flatty roadster! Looks like somebody got so mad trying to access the distributor that they solved it the hard way- flipped the engine around backwards with the ignition out in the open! Looks like it was changed to a Harman-Collins magneto? Chain drive to each rear axle? Got any info on it? How'd they get eight pipes out of six exhaust ports?
Jack, I don't know anything more about it than it was one spectacular piece of engineering. If you look closely you'll see an 'adaptor block' between the pipes and the engine ports.
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Old 05-28-07, 01:31AM   #66
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Crikey Jack, that's a pretty amazing drawing to have. Not a bad looking rod either. Shame the big end's so narrow. But they're not longer either so they're not really what Rick needs although they would undoubtedly be more suitable for his project than the Oakland rods but for the narrow big end. The offset looks like 1/16". If you could sneak them along the journal another 1/16" they would bear against the journal cheeks and there would be a 1/2" gap between them. Any ideas about a 1/2" spacer to fit between them? Do you know what they weigh? From memory the later Oakland rods are about 900 grams. What years was the Pontiac V8 produced?
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Old 05-28-07, 03:08AM   #67
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You can thank Pete McCarthy for reproducing that rod print in his book.
The spacer-between-rod-big-ends is worth thinking about, although I don't know about offsetting the small end that much in the piston- fore/aft piston rocking, maybe? I do know from experience that creating split round spacers is a pain- unless a zero-thickness "saw" existed- to turn out full-round spacers and then 'split' them. In 'real life' it means creating twice the number of spacers and machining away half of each.
The only steel Pontiac rod I've got lying in the garage is a bronze-bushed '58 forging that I narrowed the small end by .130". It weighs 799 grams, so I suppose the Pontiac forgings are just a whisker over 800 grams. 'Traditional' Pontiac V8 was made for model years '55-'79, if I'm remembering correctly that the '80-81 V8s were all 301 short-deck engines.
Tell me a little more about the roller rocker arms- did you mention that the rollers were prone to breaking? Are the rollers plain-bushed or on roller-element (ball or needle) bearings? Any idea of the roller material? Hardness of rollers? Hardness of cam lobes? Is oil force-fed to the roller axles? Are the rollers about 3/4" diameter as they appear? (Cam grinding companies seem to be most experienced at grinding lobes intended for 3/4" diameter wheels).
Thanks.
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Old 05-28-07, 09:40AM   #68
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Jack, if you took all that 0.130" off one side of the small end you could increase the offset by the 1/16" we're looking for. You're right the spacers would be a pain to make. What a shame the rods are not a bit longer and it would probably be well and truly worth it. On the other hand if I get my rear end into gear and organise a pattern for the high compression pistons, I will only make them to suit standard length rods.

The cam follower rollers are 1 1/8" dia. I assume they are case hardened mild steel as is the 1/2" dia. pin they run on. The pin axis is drilled through at 1/4" dia. and there is a radial hole of 1/8" dia. for oil to collect and splash through. There are two types of rocker bodies. The rarer (earlier?) of the two has a boss on one end of the pin bore which is drilled through the rocker body and the end of the pin. A piece of wire is passed through the hole and punched down the bore of the pin a little to stop it coming out. The second type has the rocker body staked over both ends of the pin. The pins tend to rotate on the second type wearing out the bore of the rocker body and making the orientation of the oil hole inconsistent. Cam lobes that I have tested are around 62 HRc and the case seems to be about 0.060" thick. I have certainly checked roller hardness at some time but failed to record or remember it. I would guess at a similar hardness. The top of the rocker is tapped in line with the valve stem. There is a bolt with a radiused head in it for tappet adjustment. The top of the tapped hole is slotted and there is a pinch bolt to lock the adjustment. Tappet clearance is 0.011-0.013" hot and running. For a side valve engine the tappets are ridiculously easy to set and seem to stay set.

When I first put the roadster's engine together the rollers were a little loose on the pins as were the wired pins in the bodies. I was in a bit of a hurry and didn't think it would be a problem. About a year later one of the wires came out and so did the pin and the roller. The roller got trapped between the back of a big end and a cam lobe and broken into four pieces. (No, they don't normally break!). The pin stood up on the cast bead at the bottom of the tappet chest and got belted by another lobe which snapped off a chunk of the bead but not through to the water jacket. One of the sheet metal splash shields between the crank and the cam was pretty well chewed up too. The cam lobes only needed a light regrind (I have a standard grind cam master) and the dent on the back of the rod is very small. The rocker bodies were a bit rough bored from new and a bit worn so I bored them all out to clean up. I made and precision ground new pins and rollers from case hardened EN36A. By select fitting the 16 of them I was able to assemble them all with 0.0006-0.0008" clearance. I was able to do all this with out removing the heads (or valves) although reassembly was a little tricky. That was ten years and about 45,000 miles ago.
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Old 06-05-07, 02:27AM   #69
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I give up- it makes my head spin when my feeble little mind tries to figure out why a V8 with a 180` crank inherently creates more vibration than one with a 90` crank. Heck, I don't even know if there is only one variety of 90` crank that works well; or whether different varieties of 'flat' cranks have been used at all. Can anybody point me to a "piston engine vibration analysis for dummies"? Thanks!
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Old 06-05-07, 09:15AM   #70
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I give up- it makes my head spin when my feeble little mind tries to figure out why a V8 with a 180` crank inherently creates more vibration than one with a 90` crank. Heck, I don't even know if there is only one variety of 90` crank that works well; or whether different varieties of 'flat' cranks have been used at all. Can anybody point me to a "piston engine vibration analysis for dummies"? Thanks!
You're right Jack this is a very complex matter. To get right into it involves some fairly heavy mathematical analysis which I haven't attempted. I'm afraid my mind is no less feeble than yours.

Analysis of a 180 crank V8 shows that it vibrates horizontally at crankshaft level with a frequency of twice the crankshaft rotational speed. This vibration cannot be easily cancelled. It could be dealt with with a balance shaft but the balance shaft would have to be mounted beside the crankshaft and be driven at twice crankshaft speed. I suspect it could be also dealt with by a pair of crankshaft speed balance shafts with one in each bank of the engine. This vibration is transferred from the crank to the block via the main bearing webs. A 180 crank V8 is two four cylinder engines joined in a vee from a balance point of view. Although it vibrates it is much simpler to balance. Piston and conrod weight are not important.

A V8 with a 90 crank has rotating out of balances at each end of the crank in opposite directions and at the same frequency as crankshaft rotation. This is easily dealt with by an added out of balance weight on opposite sides of each end of the crankshaft. Sometimes these are on the front pulley and flywheel/drive plate (external balance) and other times on the end webs of the shaft (internal). Piston and conrod end weights are important in determining these out of balance weights. These are complicated cranks to balance as each crankpin has to have a weight attached to it while in the balancing machine which is calculated from the weights of the pistons and conrod ends.

I presume that a 90 crank could have the throws arranged in either a clockwise or anti clockwise manner but don't know if both exist. I can imagine only one flat (180) crank arrangement.

I would also like to know of a "piston engine vibration analysis for dummies". There must be one.........
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Old 06-11-07, 04:53AM   #71
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Hey Rick, are you still there? I sent you an e-mail through this board. Did you get it?
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Old 06-11-07, 08:30PM   #72
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Hey guys, I'm back! Got it Hugh, thanks! I just got home minutes ago from taking the family on vacation in the mountains. And, up until we left last week, I have been totally swamped with the new job. It's the type of job that really goes day and night with alot of travel. And, yes, it is severly eating into my car hobby time! Other than build a rolling carrier for the engine/trans and sorting through the bucket of loose small parts (I am missing one set of valve keepers) I haven't gotten to do anything that I had hoped to have done at this stage. This week isn't going to be any better as I have a large presentation to Nissan's manufacturing plant on Friday to prepare for. Some day soon I'll get back to this project...but until then I am saving all the info you guys keep posting here.
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Old 06-12-07, 01:45AM   #73
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Rick, do you mean you are missing all the valve keepers or just some? I could probably find some. Like many other aspects of Oakland V8s the valve keepers are clever in that they are swaged out behind the spring cap so they can't be dropped into the engine, unless you drop the spring cap and keepers as an assembly. It can't fall as far like that and is easier to find. Well, it would be for anyone else who was clumsy enough to drop one.
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Old 06-12-07, 10:49AM   #74
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Only one assembly is missing. I have 15 that are complete (valve, spring, keeper assembly) and the 16th has only valve, spring and partial keeper assembly. That keeper assembly has the ring but not the two split and tapered pieces that float within that ring.
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Old 06-13-07, 01:00AM   #75
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Rick, if you send me your address I'm sure I can find one to send you. Are the valve spring cages any good or even there? Do you want to do anything about the head gasket or should I tell someone else about it?
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