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1958 - 1981 Pontiac Tech & Restoration Firebird - GTO - Fullsize

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Old 04-17-05, 04:50PM   #1
h0trod389
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Default 1978 301 Ci

HAY GUYS,

ive been into pontiacs for almost 5 years now, i own a 68 termpest vert(65' 389/m-20), 68 lemans sport(soon to be a OHC6/t-5)a 47 torpedo eight( 68' P350/th350) and my newest ride from my late grandpa a 78 GP!

what im woundering, (never messed with a 301) is if the ballancer off the 301 will work on a 68 350?, im a low budjet king and would like to salvage these parts, i plan on scrappint the 301 and putting in a 455 for track use,
i dont want to sell it and i dont wanna drive it on the street!

what can i use off these 301's? im piecing together the 68' 350 for the 47,
its got #16's head castings, im not trying to make it high performance, just trying to use the parts i have (i woulda used the #51's i have but 124cc's on a 350 would be kinda disturbing)

HOOK ME UP BROTHERS!

THANKS!
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Old 04-17-05, 08:37PM   #2
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The 301 is whole different motor by itself, I'm not sure on the
heads but I do know the balancer won't work on any other motor.
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Old 04-17-05, 08:42PM   #3
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Default manifolds

i know that the exhaust manifolds will bolt up, but the intake is a bit diff and so are the runners. looks like ill either pull it and store it for an extra, or just scrap it, it runs tho!


ever tried the distributors into the earlier blocks?
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Old 04-17-05, 08:46PM   #4
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Nothing from the 301 will fit anything else. Most guys just scrap
them.
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Old 04-19-05, 04:31AM   #5
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Default 301

301 Info
This was an economy engine and was never meant to endure the stresses of racing.The emphasis was weight savings and gas mileage , midrange rpms.
A thin wall casting the block is 61 lbs lighter than a standard 187 lb Pontiac 350 block
It has a lower deck than the standard Pontiac V8's
It does have a 4" bore diameter.(a plus)
The turbo blocks are supposedly stronger than the std. 301 block.
The 301 crankshaft weighs only 42 lbs because it is not fully counterweighted , only two, and has a 3" stroke.
Mains are 3" (like the 350 thru 400 engines), Crank pin diameters are 2".
The engine is externally balanced a the flywheel so a specially counter weighted flywheel must be used and is not interchangeable with the other Pontiac flywheels and vice versa.
The damper may be done the same way.Double check it for any signs of a counter weight.If it is truly a counterweighted balancer you must not use it on an internally balanced engine such as 350/400/455.
I thought I have seen ads for after market balancers saying they will fit 301 thru 455.I do not know for sure.Crank snout diameters will give this away too.
Timing sets, valve covers, fuel pumps , distributors,oil pumps , cams rocker, arms and lifters for the bigger enginges , will work in the 301.
Pushrods are shorter @ 8.12" length due to the shorter deck on the block.
Not sure about the oil pans , front covers and valley / push rod covers.
Piston pins are .938 to .942 dia.
Rods are "armasteel" and weigh 21.9 ozs.
connecting rod length is 6.050"
The cylinder heads are the biggest limiting factor for this engine.
Siamesed intake runners,1.72 intake , 1.50 exhaust.
They weigh only 94 lbs.
The intake manifold is a single plane low plenum design. which weighs only 24 lbs.
No after market intake manifold was ever produced.
The bigger engine cylinder heads will bolt on but there is no on the shelf manifold that will work with the geometry change because of the shorter deck.
A lot of fabrication and careful machining would be involved .
If a 326 or 350 crank were used special rods and stroker pistons would have to be used or turn the crank pins to 2.0" and try and make the stock rods work.
Could be real fun but you would have to be very realistic about the power levels and the life span of it.
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Old 04-22-05, 04:40AM   #6
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Default More 301 Notes

The "deck" on the 301 block is 1" shorter than a standard Pontiac block.
All blocks from 1980 on were the stronger "turbo" style castings and can be identified by a "T" cast into the side of the block or the casting #10009193 which can be found in the area around the distributor hole.
Turbo engines used a stronger cast piston which also helped to yield a 7.2:1 ratio for the application of boost.
Standard cast pistons for the NA 301's were 8.2:1 units.
Dampers and flywheels will fit a standard Pontiac crankshaft but,because of the counterweights on them, will throw a standard engine severely out of balance and destroy it in short order .DON'T DO IT!
DO NOT use a standard zero balance Pontiac flywheel/ flexplate or damper on a 301 or 265 crank shaft for the same reason because they will cause the engine to shake apart due to the lack of the external counterweights.
The 301 cylinder heads have a chamber volume of 71cc. They will fit a standard Pontiac block but manifolds will not mate to them and they are not a high flowing head.
Herb Adams VSE originally prototyped a 4V intake manifold with individual runners for the 301 but it never was mass produced and is considered very very rare.
This piece would have been the key to putting/ bolting on higher flowing heads from standard engine on a 301.
The 326 HO heads would be a good swap but the intake manifold would have to be hand built.
As I mentioned before all standard valve train components will work with the 301 engine except the pushrods . They must be shorter because of the lower block deck.
Standard water pumps will work on the 301 .The original 301 featured a low drag impeller on it's water pump.
The original 301 starters were a lighter unit but the standard Pontiac starter bolts right up.
Aftermarket headers will fit the standard 301 heads but due to the lower deck on the engine the headers will move down and inward in the chassis so fit up problems would have to be dealt with on a trial and error basis.
Crankshafts from standard Pontiac engines are not a bolt in because the main bearing widths , although the same dia. as on the 350 and 400, are different with the main bearings being narrower on the 301 crankshaft .
This would mean a custom aftermarket crankshaft or bearing adapter kit to accept a standard crank would have to be made if an internally balanced 301 was desired.
Basic mods and a cam change is about all one can do to theses engines,aside from the turbo, without going overboard (overbored?).
If a person was very resourceful an all out, internally balanced, 301 could be built but it would be a true labor of love.
[cheers]
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Old 07-04-05, 11:01PM   #7
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Yes the oil pan, timing cover, water pump, oil pump, distributor, cam, valve covers, timing set, cam thrust plate will interchange. At a glance the balancer would fit, I know all Pontiac v8’s (non 301’s) are externally balanced but not sure of the 301 motor.
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Old 07-05-05, 12:27PM   #8
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Default Balance ?

The larger displacement Pontiac V8's with std. deck height ,almost all of them as far as I know are "INTERNALLY BALANCED" rotating assemblies.That is to say they achieve balance using a fully counter weighted crankshaft.

The 301 and it's smaller displacement rendition (265? or 267?) did not use a fully counterweighted crankshaft and acheived rotating assembly balance by using external counterweight(s) on the flywheel and front damper.
This condition makes the short deck 301's and all it's permutations "EXTERNALLY BALANCED" engines.
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Old 07-06-05, 09:13PM   #9
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By no means do I want to discredit you sprint250 but I feel it is important that the readers know that all (1964-79 anyway) Pontiac 326-455 v8’s are externally balanced. The factory had added 6 in/oz on to the flywheel/flexplate and that is why the bolt pattern is made to only go on one-way. The harmonic balancers are neutral. Just because the crank has a full complement of counter weights doesn’t mean it is internally (also know as neutral or zero) balanced. All aftermarket SFI flexplate/flywheels are zero balanced so one would need to (re) balance the motor or “adjust” the flywheel/flexplate by 6 in/oz at the proper location if the motor wasn’t already zero.

I do not know what Pontiac did on the 265/301 motors however.
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Old 07-07-05, 04:32AM   #10
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Default Credit

Thanks for the correction.
You are correct.
That is why I prefaced my remarks with "as far as I Know "
Nobody is out here to discredit anyone.
We are all here to share info.
Zero or neutral balance usually refers to the parts that have no type of counterweght at all.Not heavier on one side than the other.
Would a zero balance crankshaft be an uncut blank piece of billet?
As far as the 301's go they were all externally balanced engines
So the dampers may swap but the weight will not be right.
Same goes for the flywheels and flexplates because the counter weights are not there on the 301 crank.
By the time most guys hot rod the std. engine everything gets rebalanced internally.
Throwing the 6oz on the flywheel,cheaper than adding slugs of Mallory Metal inside on the counter weights, meant the engineers came up short on weight inside the engine either because they shaved too much weight off the late production cranks or they were using 350 weighted cranks in the 400's towards the end of the Pontiac V8 production?I don't know the whole story behind why they did what they did.I'd be interested to know the history of it.
Maybe you could illucidate on that.
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Old 07-16-05, 04:00PM   #11
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Question out of balance?????????

read what yall said about the balance issue. i am now concerned about my new engine. i have a 74 455 i put a tci sfi flywheel on it i did not have the motor balanced at that time. am i in for trouble???
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Old 07-17-05, 05:47AM   #12
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To zero balance (a Pontiac) would mean that “if “ you were to run a motor without a flywheel/flex plate you would not do any damage to the assembly. If it were balanced per factory specs (externally balanced) then you would/could have bearing/crank damage and vibration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sprint250
Thanks for the correction.
You are correct.
That is why I prefaced my remarks with "as far as I Know "
Nobody is out here to discredit anyone.
We are all here to share info.
Zero or neutral balance usually refers to the parts that have no type of counterweght at all.Not heavier on one side than the other.
Would a zero balance crankshaft be an uncut blank piece of billet?
As far as the 301's go they were all externally balanced engines
So the dampers may swap but the weight will not be right.
Same goes for the flywheels and flexplates because the counter weights are not there on the 301 crank.
By the time most guys hot rod the std. engine everything gets rebalanced internally.
Throwing the 6oz on the flywheel,cheaper than adding slugs of Mallory Metal inside on the counter weights, meant the engineers came up short on weight inside the engine either because they shaved too much weight off the late production cranks or they were using 350 weighted cranks in the 400's towards the end of the Pontiac V8 production?I don't know the whole story behind why they did what they did.I'd be interested to know the history of it.
Maybe you could illucidate on that.
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Old 07-17-05, 05:51AM   #13
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How was your assembly balanced (if any)? If you installed a TCI SFI flex plate to and other wise stock balance then you have/had a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird406
read what yall said about the balance issue. i am now concerned about my new engine. i have a 74 455 i put a tci sfi flywheel on it i did not have the motor balanced at that time. am i in for trouble???
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Old 07-19-05, 03:06PM   #14
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Default Flex plate / flywheel

406
check the one you removed . If it has the "additional weight" for externally achieving rotating assembly balance and you have done nothing else internally to the rotating assembly you would have to the exact amount of weight,if required, added to achieve balance externally and in the exact right location on the flywheel.There is a possibility that the weight could be added without a complete teardown by sending the old and new flywheels to a balance shop and having them impart the same out of balance condition to the new one via comparison checking .

It is my opinion his should be done by tearing the whole engine down and sending all the parts ,rods, bolts , rod bearings ,pistons , pins, rings , crankshaft,damper& flywheel off to a shop that can perform this operation to get it spot on.I've had shops even ask for the accessory pulley some times.
If you had to go to that amount of trouble you might as well "internally balance" the whole shooting match and keep the flywheel at zero if at all possible.
This is the only sure way of knowing all your stuff goes together.

If you recently had the engine done and balancing was included in the job there should be a balance card for that engine job # if the shop that did it is keeping good records.Always ask for the balance card or a copy of it when you are picking up an engine that includes this service.
This way you will know if the balancing ,if done at all,was done to "stock factory specs." with the assumption that an externally counter weighted "stock" flywheel was to be used or balanced internally with the assumption that a zero balance flywheel is to be used.This all depends on the components thst were selected.
Call Ken's Speed and Machine
or Andy Mitchell at Pure Pontiac about your concerns to be sure.
They both have ads on this site and would be glad to give you advice.
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Old 12-04-05, 04:17AM   #15
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Default Don't modify SFI parts

An SFI certified part that has been modified isn't valid racing equipment. To pass a thorough tech inspection at the track, the engine needs to come apart and get balanced with the parts you're going to use on it.
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