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Old 06-15-18, 12:33PM   #31
Steve C
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Same situation here, not all the holes are drilled. Also related, take a look at the Cometic gaskets made to Butlers specifications and note they are slightly different.


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Old 06-15-18, 03:52PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisR View Post
OMFG! You're overthinking it. Speak to diamond, get them to make you a piston with the pin at the right height. Then speak to Total Seal and get them to make you a ring pack for the bore. Go with the smallest bore you can, i.e. 4.360+0.005 and file them to fit (!!!!!!!!!).
LMAO! ^^^^^^ This, the rings can be filed, oil rings no biggie.
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Old 06-15-18, 04:42PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisR View Post
OMFG! You're overthinking it. Speak to diamond, get them to make you a piston with the pin at the right height. Then speak to Total Seal and get them to make you a ring pack for the bore. Go with the smallest bore you can, i.e. 4.360+0.005 and file them to fit (!!!!!!!!!).
One of the most clueless posts I have seen in awhile. Not overthinking anything.
Right, call Diamond and go behind these peoples back. IDIOTIC
Kiss of death on this engine.
Like they would give me the time of day when it comes to the very custom 55mm, lobe swap special pump gas cam that I need very much. And all the top notch advice I am to get on all the little details of this engine.
I am going to build my own pan too. Could use their advice on that also.
But hey, I will just throw all that out the window because some guy went OMFG! on me.
Get real. Have anything helpful to add ? Gach has given a few of his tips, Done this before. Steve C has given me some very helpful advice.
Its what this place is supposed to be all about.
What sucks is I have to be sorta careful putting stuff out there that I get recommended from the people that are helping me. Then they could get dragged into some BS that they want no part of by internet wana be's or have been there and just want to talk down types.
I can either talk about this a little with folks online in a respectful way, with back and fourth advice and tips. Or just clam up and post the dyno results when that time comes. I would rather talk a bit.
Its your guys choice.

Last edited by Dragncar : 06-15-18 at 05:35PM.
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Old 06-15-18, 04:53PM   #34
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LMAO! ^^^^^^ This, the rings can be filed, oil rings no biggie.
You sure about that ? You have no knowledge of the exact rings I am using. You can not get them in all bore sizes and certain bore sizes have better ring availability.
If I am told the 4.3617 hole will not clean @ 4.360 + clearance up by the people who are doing the pistons, what am I supposed to do ? Argue with them because some guy on the internet told me too? That would be a very, very dumb move.
I still have 4.380-4.390 and 4.410 past 4.375
So, LMAO all you want pal.

Only other thing I could do is sleeve one or two holes or run two different size pistons and rings. And getting that done the costs go way up because its custom, small order pistons and rings. And you might have to buy a whole set of rings just to get one or two.

Last edited by Dragncar : 06-15-18 at 05:21PM.
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Old 06-15-18, 07:33PM   #35
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Question how do you know all the bore sizes on your new block ? Did you check them or your machine shop ?
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Old 06-15-18, 07:49PM   #36
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It seems to me that the way it usually goes with your block situation, at least most machine shops would want to do, is see what those bores clean up to, then order pistons from that point, or else how would they know. I think the General consensus is your making it more complicated then it needs to be.

Itís one thing if the bores are all close, but when you have two unknown cylinders you never know what your going to get into until you start trying to clean up those two bores. It sounds like your putting the horse before the cart.
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Old 06-15-18, 08:30PM   #37
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Dragncar...Please donít take this the wrong way, but the General consensus is you talk about Scott Brown like heís god, and everything top Secret, no doubt heís good, but the name of the game and what its all about is

A lot of one off stuff. Lots of maintenance. High rpms Whatever you can do to make engine run the number without worrying about cost. Thatís what Leech did, did it make Scott Brown and Marcella a heros. Thing of it is some of us know what the bottom line is. What youíre trying to do is impractical for bracket motor. This is why your getting so much flack.

Itís one thing if your out to make that 900 hp then back it up at the track, but you canít back pedal then say, hey Iíll make it a 10.00 car and run two classes, or if I want to make 1000 hp down the road ( not a pump gas motor ) what your talking about doing just donít make sense. Itís not something thatís going to go rounds and live.
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Old 06-15-18, 08:42PM   #38
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I dont understand why these rings are so important . Whats it going to cost you 30 or 40 hp if you do get them? how long will low tention rings last anyway..? Whats wrong wiyh having 860 hp instead of 900 hp trying to go 10.00's ? either one can run that fast...
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Old 06-16-18, 12:17AM   #39
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So due to rings, you want to base you bottom end on that? Gach is right, You might think you can go 4.350 but what is the tapper on each bore?? There is so much info missing, plus your hidden secret squirrel stuff, if I cared enough I might ask more, but I do not think it would go anywhere.
Good luck.
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Old 06-16-18, 12:27AM   #40
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Quote:
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Question how do you know all the bore sizes on your new block ? Did you check them or your machine shop ?
Took it to a machine shop that has done work for me before. The guy is very experienced.
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Old 06-16-18, 12:36AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach View Post
It seems to me that the way it usually goes with your block situation, at least most machine shops would want to do, is see what those bores clean up to, then order pistons from that point, or else how would they know. I think the General consensus is your making it more complicated then it needs to be.

Itís one thing if the bores are all close, but when you have two unknown cylinders you never know what your going to get into until you start trying to clean up those two bores. It sounds like your putting the horse before the cart.
What are you taking about ? More complicated ?. Horse before the cart ?
What is more complicated than boring them all 4.375 and being done with it. Its only .025 larger than the base bore. That way the largest bore has more than enough to clean up.
There is not one thing "unknown" about the two bores in question. I was happy to find out the big one was only 4.361, I thought it was much larger and would have to be sleeved. It means I got a GREAT deal on the block. I will have in the end around the same price as a std IA2. But 55mm, big cam and line honed and maybe decked. Hard to beat that.
And IMO,you do not order pistons ever with the bore already done. Pistons need to be in hand first.
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Old 06-16-18, 02:44AM   #42
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Originally Posted by turbo louie View Post
I dont understand why these rings are so important . Whats it going to cost you 30 or 40 hp if you do get them? how long will low tention rings last anyway..? Whats wrong wiyh having 860 hp instead of 900 hp trying to go 10.00's ? either one can run that fast...
They are important because I want to hit a number. And I did ask more than once about longevity. They are not a 100,000 mile ring. But they will last more than one season. That is 2-3 seasons. I am willing to do it. A engine like this should be checked out every few years anyway.
I am concerned about how long they will last. but my concerns were alleviated.
BTW, not calling them low tension. They might be, but not the word that was used.
They only cost a few bucks more than std rings. And I can go different rings the next time around it I want to.
I have a chance to hit a number, going for it.
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Old 06-16-18, 02:50AM   #43
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Pontiacs should NEVRER be bored then honed to fit later anyway. They need to be bored AND honed with a tq plate, not just bored with one, same materiel as the head and same head gasket.
Not a sbc with 7/16 bolts farther away from the edge of the bore.
We have a 1/2" bolt that is tq to 90lbs pretty close to the bore. They will distort.
That is how D Whittmore described it to me if you want your bores to be round.
4.360 is not a option with the big hole.
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Old 06-16-18, 06:43AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Gach View Post
Dragncar...Please donít take this the wrong way, but the General consensus is you talk about Scott Brown like heís god, and everything top Secret, no doubt heís good, but the name of the game and what its all about is

A lot of one off stuff. Lots of maintenance. High rpms Whatever you can do to make engine run the number without worrying about cost. Thatís what Leech did, did it make Scott Brown and Marcella a heros. Thing of it is some of us know what the bottom line is. What youíre trying to do is impractical for bracket motor. This is why your getting so much flack.

Itís one thing if your out to make that 900 hp then back it up at the track, but you canít back pedal then say, hey Iíll make it a 10.00 car and run two classes, or if I want to make 1000 hp down the road ( not a pump gas motor ) what your talking about doing just donít make sense. Itís not something thatís going to go rounds and live.
Gach, you know better. What the hell are you talking about ?
The cam I will get ground is going to be a whole lot like the one I got from you, only 55mm. RPMs will be about the same as you did. Said peak power was at 7200 RPMs. If I had the same cam it would peak even lower being a 540ci. You would think he would grind it a bit larger for this engine.
You made 880HP with these heads same carb and a Victor. Is it too much to think 20HP with 35 cubes, 1/4" more stroke and a Tiger ? Your words were it should not be a problem, but now it is ?? Did you make the 880 ?
This is a simple engine with really good heads, very nice intake, great carb with a 7500 RPM cam with any tricks I can use(lobe swap) and a real nice set of pistons with a mildly high end ring set.
It will not be high maintenance it any way. Cam is going to be .830 lift like you ran. I have been told it will not be overly aggressive, won't beat things up. Being 55mm is a whole lot easier than what you ran with std journal. Valve springs last much longer with a 55mm cam too.
You could make the case your engine was far more high maintenance than mine will be. 3/4 point more CR, aluminum rods with std journal cam. No one runs .904 lifters with std cam, that makes no sense.
Putting rings and valve springs every 2-3 years is not high maintenance for 850-900HP. Its standard operating procedure.
This engine will be built with the intent of going rounds.
It makes a ton of sense. You dream about a turbo where you can turn the wick up and make 1200 HP on pump gas, reasonable. But if I want to put a 1050 on it, and what will that cut it down to 800HP ?? and run 10 flat shifting at 6500 RPMs with ease it does not make any sense ? Its doing the same thing you want to but a different/cheaper way. I can always put the Cubic on and turn the wick up, let it eat.
This engine will give me options, lots of them.
Engines shifting under 7K last a long time with very high quality parts.
Save it with the Scott and "god" stuff. Its putting words in my mouth. I think a great deal of John and Scott. The most straight to the point and knowledgeable engine people I know. Learn more than I can say and I like it.
Much of what I am doing, including buying YOUR heads is about Mike. Inspired me and he is the reason I am running a Tiger. I could not buy his BOP, sold and too expensive anyway(3500$) And he said run a Tiger, so I am.
What is so "one off", a intake that will always be worth just about what I have into it and never wears out ? I will only have a few hundred bucks more into it than I could have gotten your Victor for. No one I know will have a Pontiac aftermarket engine for less money than I do, not even close.
We have talked too much and you know actually how much I have into this stuff for you to say "lots of one off stuff", "Lots of maintenance" "without
worrying about cost".
Nothing about this engine will be high maintenance, high strung, or expensive. You know anyone else that will have bought their block,crank, rods, pistons and rings for 4500$ ? I will have the cheapest Pontiac NA 900HP around.

Just buying pistons, rings and cam from Scott and John is going to do a intake. Gets me some advice, well worth it. What is so "money is no object about that ?
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Old 06-16-18, 10:52AM   #45
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The one of stuff and high maintenance was referreing to Mikes motor, thought I made that clear.

You Interpreted what I said, wrong. If you have a hole that has a blemish ( or mark ) as you said canít feel with your finger nail, ( forget the bigger hole ) a machinist is going to want to see what it takes to clean that up. Very well may be prosody, or could be thin in that area. Its strange heís saying it needs two sleeves, unless the block was sonic tested and issues found. Who knows.
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