PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS
 

Go Back   PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS >
Engine Tech
> " TURBO BUILDS "
User Name
Password

" TURBO BUILDS " Post your Turbo build-Up or any that you have in process

sponser links

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-18-19, 11:35AM   #1
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default 69 Firebird conv. 498ci Turbo Build

I'm in the process of restomoding my 69 Firebird Conv. It will be a primary street car with a (non competitive) adventure to road a course and drag strip every now and then.

This build never started with a HP goal. The original goal was to build a 500ci Pontiac, Fuel injection with 15lbs of boost through a single bore forward facing throttle body like an LS style 104MM. As for HP goes, I still dont know where it will be but assume it will be more than enough.... Its been evolving to say the least. Now its looking like Ill be running coil on plug and have been looking at the Holley Dominator ECM which offers a traction control feature that works with boost controlers. The goal here is to limit boost off the line and ease into the boost as it gets rolling in order to give the factory block a chance at survival.

The block is a 1974 455 based 498ci stroker with Scat 4.5 crank, H-beam Rods and CP pistons with a 40cc dish to bring the compression down to 9:1cr. The goal is to run either a twin or single turbo. All I'm looking for is between 10lbs-15lbs of boost.

It will also be mounted with both rear and front motor plates with the thought of minimizing block distortion/stress under load associated with the traditional motor mounts with high torque engines.

The heads are 72cc round ports and are currently getting fitted for 2.19I and 1.77E. They will flow approx 340cc's when completed. The combustion chambers, intake /exhaust ports will be ceramic coated to assist with heat control on the street.

The intake manifold planned will be to run a 671 blower lower intake, topped with a 4" inner cooler and a Holley High Ram plenum with an appropriate sized throttle body...

The block has been filled to the lower freeze plugs and is getting Program 4-bolt splayed caps. Still not sure if I should do the rear and front caps, i hear conflicting advice some say Yeah some say Neah... If I dont get any clarity I will end up dropping the dime on those as well.

I know everyone says get the aftermarket block... and I do believe them to be right... unfortunately the ship has sailed without the aftermarket block. From what I understand, as long as I dont dead hook it the factory block should hold up... if it doesn't, then an aftermarket block will be on the list.

Just looking for ideas from people who have been down this road... I already know the first suggestion will be to go with an aftermarket block... perhaps one day I will... Outside of the block, any thoughts and ideas are genuinely appreciated.

SPEED SAFE, NICK
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	69 Firebird.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	89.4 KB
ID:	29712   Click image for larger version

Name:	69 Firebird breakdown.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	108.9 KB
ID:	29713  
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker

Last edited by AIR RAM : 05-18-19 at 12:28PM.
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-19, 01:26PM   #2
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

This is how it sits now... Still need to remove the steering wheel, dash, conv top frame, windows... then off to sand blasting.

__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-19, 04:29PM   #3
Gach
Administrator
 
Gach's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ....
Posts: 19,444
Default

Thatís quite a project you have going on. The block will definitely be weak link.
Only thing I donít like is the stroke, thatís allot of stroke for a turbo motor. You donít need allot of cubic inches with a turbo. Better stroke wouldíve been either 3.75 or 4Ē stroke. Turbos donít like allot of stroke unless your going all out and plan on race gas,
__________________
The things they hide, the way they spin things, the excuses that they make and the things they omit.
Gach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-19, 07:24PM   #4
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach View Post
Thatís quite a project you have going on. The block will definitely be weak link.
Only thing I donít like is the stroke, thatís allot of stroke for a turbo motor. You donít need allot of cubic inches with a turbo. Better stroke wouldíve been either 3.75 or 4Ē stroke. Turbos donít like allot of stroke unless your going all out and plan on race gas,
Yeah, I know... but the goal is not necessarily to build an all out turbo motor, there is no HP goal with this build... so I can back things up quite a bit as necessary. It was simply to build a 500ci Pontiac engine Fuel inject it and add 15lbs of boost to it (on pump gas) while knowing more HP could be made with a smaller stroke/ci engine, I need that 4.5" stroke to hit the goal. I have several people trying to talk me into doing a boosted LS3 swap... which would be cheaper and easier...

There is no plan to dead hook it and do wheel stands... so that should ease the majority of the stress the block would see. The intention is to run a progressive boost control that would ease boost in as RPMs increased.

Also, I plan to break the engine in NA for about a year and then start boosting it in increments while adjusting the tune. Who knows, I may just stick with 10lbs...

Thank you for the response...

SPEED SAFE, NICK
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-19, 09:48PM   #5
Gach
Administrator
 
Gach's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ....
Posts: 19,444
Default

Have you pick out a cam yet. Iíll tell you what with a 340 CFM head and 498 ci, N/A ( no power adder ) your going to be a happy camper. With right cam. Of course you know a turbo combo going to want a whole different cam.
__________________
The things they hide, the way they spin things, the excuses that they make and the things they omit.
Gach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-19, 11:05PM   #6
turbo louie
Registered User
 
turbo louie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: mastic ny
Posts: 2,172
Default

5 psi is all you will need to roast those tires forever . After that is just a waste of your engines durability ..
__________________
If it's gona be it's up to me!
turbo louie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-19, 07:26PM   #7
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach View Post
Have you pick out a cam yet. I’ll tell you what with a 340 CFM head and 498 ci, N/A ( no power adder ) your going to be a happy camper. With right cam. Of course you know a turbo combo going to want a whole different cam.
I have not chosen the cam yet, we will be doing that soon after the heads are completed. I will be leaning on my head Porter (Travis Knowlton KTRE) with the cam selection. I dont believe I want/need a dedicated boosted cam though. Its already going to be making more power than the block can handle... So maximum boost potential is really not that important. Id like to chose a cam that gives a little of the best of both worlds. I want something thats going to make good cruise speed torque for optimal fuel economy... (LOL not like thats a thing with 498ci). Would like to make the shift points between 6000-6200 RPMs...



Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo louie View Post
5 psi is all you will need to roast those tires forever . After that is just a waste of your engines durability ..
Thank you for your input, yeah 5PSI would be fun... The plan is to start off low and work my way up... I'm trying to build it to accept 15psi... I can see 10psi being a sweat spot. I would like to run some of the mile events... and feel if applied right, 15psi may be doable and should help get some good MPH. I absolutely dont plan to run 15psi out of the hole... just plan to slowly bump it up incrementally till its all in.

Still looking around for a good chassis. I plan to run C6 spindles and breaks/rotors with a ford 9" style rear. Would like something thats complete front to rear.

SPEED SAFE, NICK
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker

Last edited by AIR RAM : 05-20-19 at 07:38PM.
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-19, 06:50PM   #8
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

Pistons are in... Here are the weights. Again, since I plan to run boost these are a hair on the heavy side...

CP Carrillo Pistons, Pontiac 455 4.19 bore - 501grams
40cc dish
Wrist pins 159 (Can get titanium pins @ 110 grams)
Locks 4
Rings 36.70

SCAT H-BEAM Rods:
Big End 560
Small End 254


The only option I have at this point to lower inertia weight is with the titanium wrist pins. They would drop 49grams with going to a set of titanium wrist pins. They would be strong enough to support 1500HP which would be significantly more than I expect (950-1100)... 49 grams less equates to 418lbs per piston at 6500rpm. That's a significant weight loss in inertia stress.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	40cc dish 498ci.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	47.9 KB
ID:	29717   Click image for larger version

Name:	40cc dish 498ci Side.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	46.7 KB
ID:	29718   Click image for larger version

Name:	40cc dish 498ci Bottom.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	51.5 KB
ID:	29719  
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-19, 06:54PM   #9
JSPONT
Registered User
 
JSPONT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,478
Default

did you tell them the pistons were for a boosted car?
JSPONT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-19, 12:18PM   #10
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSPONT View Post
did you tell them the pistons were for a boosted car?
Ohh yeah, they are made specifically for the application... otherwise they would have been a few grams lighter...

NICK
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-19, 10:59PM   #11
JSPONT
Registered User
 
JSPONT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,478
Default

The reason I ask, now I am not bashing, but those reliefs make the piston thin on the side there, if you are off a little bit on the tune, that can be a trouble spot, the ring land is not set down that far, and on boosted cars, they like to lift ring lands. I lifted 2 ring lands, the last set of pistons I got had the ring lands 350 thousand's down to prevent that again.
JSPONT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-19, 08:10PM   #12
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSPONT View Post
The reason I ask, now I am not bashing, but those reliefs make the piston thin on the side there, if you are off a little bit on the tune, that can be a trouble spot, the ring land is not set down that far, and on boosted cars, they like to lift ring lands. I lifted 2 ring lands, the last set of pistons I got had the ring lands 350 thousand's down to prevent that again.

Thank you for your input, no worries, I would not post the build if I wasn't open for some form of conversation/debate/feedback...

I'm fully aware of your concern and it was a conversation about during the design phase.

The rep at CP Cirillo who had a role in design them for this specific application for 10-15lbs boost w/72cc aluminum heads and a 9:1cr target.

The ceramic coatings will also play a role in deflecting heat from the piston tops but he says even without the coatings these will have no issues at those boost levels. The rep did suggest that If we where talking 20-25lbs or more boost then we would have taken a different approach entirely and the weight of the pistons would have gone up. I agree with them ... Ive helped friends add a whole lot more boost to lesser of pistons... They all held up... So I'm confident with the thought and time that went into these, we will be find within the intended application.
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-19, 11:02PM   #13
transtalon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Des Plaines IL
Posts: 54
Default

titanium pins are not a good option for pins. They will flex and be very bad on a boosted application.
transtalon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-19, 09:25AM   #14
AIR RAM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: HOMESTEAD
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by transtalon View Post
titanium pins are not a good option for pins. They will flex and be very bad on a boosted application.
That seems to be the consensus.

SPEED SAFE, NICK
__________________
Resto-moding 1969 Pontiac Firebird Conv.
Building Turbo 455/498ci stroker
AIR RAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
79 Turbo TA Build 7D9TA " TURBO BUILDS " 351 09-14-18 12:05AM
My 301 Turbo Build Ondatrack " TURBO BUILDS " 28 01-23-15 01:38PM
1972 Firebird Formula 428 w/ BW s475 Build Ponchoman69 " TURBO BUILDS " 21 12-30-13 10:45PM
need engine mounts edreimer Grape Vine - General Discussion 1 04-15-11 02:30AM
Head count for readers of forced induction threads turbo69BIRD Forced Induction 83 07-31-09 09:52AM


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 08:30AM.

Featured Ads
Ken's Speed & Machine
Mayhem Turbocharging

Carter Cryogenics.  What can we freeze for you?

Pacific Performance Racing

Central Virginia Machine Service.  Home of the Injun Engine!

All Pontiac Engine Kits

Larry's Auto Machine.  Full serivce auto, marine machine shop, domestic and foreign.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2007 PontiacZone.com
Page generated in 0.12855 seconds with 44 queries