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Old 03-13-09, 03:37AM   #1
gtofreek
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Default Torque plate distortion evidence.

For those who believe a Pontiac does not distort enough to justify the use of a torque plate, here is some video evidence to the contrary.

Video #1: is named "BTP.mpg" for "Before Torque Plate". This is a measurement of the cylinder before I bolted the torque plate on. It's hard to read, but the needle is on 5, which is .005" before final size.

Video #2: named "BeforeTP.mpg", is video of the gauge on our hone that registers honing stone pressure. The individual red line segments represent about .0001". The red line movement represents about a .0002" difference in the cylinder from top to bottom. The yellow light flashes when the hone gets to the bottom of it's stroke.

Video #3: named "ATP.mpg" or "After Torque Plate", is the same cylinder after bolting the torque plate on. Nothing else was done in between BTP.mpg and ATP.mpg. Now notice how the gauge starts out at .0055" and about 2"-3" it compresses to .006", then back to the original .005"

Video #4: named "After-TPlate.mpg" is the hone gauge again. Notice how much the gauge jumps around now. The hone also sounded very uneven until the cylinder became round again which took about .0035"-.004" to attain. Which was about .002" before final size.

Video #4: named "Final.mpg" is the final bore size which only varies by .0001".

This is a Pontiac 400 block also. There has been discussion before about the Pontiac block not really benefiting from a torque plate because the head bolts were further away from the cylinders than other blocks, but as you can see, Pontiacs distort just like everything else and a torque plate is absolutely needed for a good round cylinder and good ring seal. Without the torque plate, you need to put about 10,000 miles on it before the rings reach full sealing capability.

Just thought some of the doubters would want to see the proof.
Attached Files
File Type: mpg BTP.mpg (879.9 KB, 223 views)
File Type: mpg BeforeTP.mpg (462.4 KB, 180 views)
File Type: mpg ATP.mpg (950.6 KB, 170 views)
File Type: mpg After-TPlate.mpg (877.6 KB, 149 views)
File Type: mpg Final.mpg (878.5 KB, 162 views)
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Old 03-13-09, 03:30PM   #2
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I'm quite suprised some think Pontiac Iron wont distort and its also important to get the T-plate,gasket,spacers,Hardware right when doing it! Good job
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Old 03-13-09, 05:24PM   #3
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I dont get it. You bore the cylinder with torque plates. Then you relax the torque plates and hone the cylinder ? Whats the point in torque plates then? Could you please put the torque plates on after the hone job and measure and report the results?
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Old 03-13-09, 08:06PM   #4
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Yeah, your not getting it alright! LOL! This block was .030" over. It needed to go to .040" over. I honed it without a torque plate to get the cylinders within .005" from finished size. That is when I measured it in the first video named BTP.mpg. I also showed how straight and round the cylinders were without the T-plate bolted on by honing it and showing the gauge. That was video #2 or BeforeTP.mpg. Also, video #1 was filmed AFTER I did the honing in video #2. THEN, I bolted on the torque plate and without honing anymore or doing anything else, I remeasured the same cylinder in video #3 or ATP.mpg to show the difference in bore dimensions[it changed by as much as .001"]. Then I proceeded to start honing it to show the out of roundness and distortion. That was video #4 or after-Tplate.mpg. Then I finished honing it to the final bore size WITH the torque plate still bolted on and then I measured it to show finished size. That was video #5 or Final.mpg. I really didn't need to post the Final video, but hey, I figured I would show off my work a little while I'm at it! Can you blame me?

Before bolting on the torque plate, the hone sounded real nice and even[sounded kind of like this; SHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSH]. Sorry, it's hard to spell out sound effects!. After bolting on the torque plate, it sounded more like this; tsh.. tsh.. tsh.. tsh.. tsh.. tsh.. tsh.. for about .0035" before it got nice and even and steady like SHSHSHSHSHSHSHSH.

Does that make more sense?
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Old 03-13-09, 08:13PM   #5
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Yes that one makes sense to me. Sorry for me being a little stupid here.

Thansk for the nice videos BTW.
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Old 03-13-09, 08:14PM   #6
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I've always had my blocks done with torque plates based on theory and the recommendation of others. It's good to have something validated instead of just theory. Good post Paul!
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Old 03-13-09, 08:24PM   #7
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BTW. video number 5 was the best one.
Hm rest was a lot of distortion and stuff in.
Now another stupid question from me, lets say one hav to do a ring gap( not sure that anybody cares to do that anymore ). Would it matter to do it with the torque plates on or am I just picky now?
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Old 03-13-09, 08:30PM   #8
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I measure the ring gaps on torque plated blocks by sliding the ring down a few inch's into the bore. This gets it beyond the distortion. As you can see, the torque plate bolted on makes the cylinder smaller in the top half. If you were to gap the rings at the top, then the ring gap would be about .003" smaller after the head was bolted on.
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Old 03-13-09, 08:34PM   #9
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Thanks Paul for your answers. Great that guys like you can post stuff like this.
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Old 03-14-09, 12:37AM   #10
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Just more proof that there are machine shops that know what their doing and others that don't. Regardless of make, horsepower level or anything else i personally believe that any engine should be machined the proper way or your just wasting your time and money. Who wants to wait 10,000 miles for rings to seal properly (if they decide to seal then) among the other issues it's going to cause. Better off just to do it the right way the first time.
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Old 03-14-09, 11:43AM   #11
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Good job, Paul. It does accurately illustrate, even the better blocks (Pontiacs) can gain some from proper "procedure".

It is commonly believed, because the bolt "boiss" isn't integral with the deck and cylinder (as they are in Chevy engines), there is no distortion. There is.

We use a deck plate on every "premium" engine we do (ALL Pontiacs are "premium" here). Because it takes more time, it costs a bit more and the cheapie-chugger Chevy boys don't want to ante up. They need it more than any other!

We don't use a boring bar, per se. We have diamond stones for the Sunnen hone. They remove material rapidly. So we "bore" the blocks with the hone. The plate is on the block from the beginning of the process until the end, when the "plateau" is completed.

Jim
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Old 03-14-09, 12:59PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PBody View Post
Good job, Paul. It does accurately illustrate, even the better blocks (Pontiacs) can gain some from proper "procedure".

It is commonly believed, because the bolt "boiss" isn't integral with the deck and cylinder (as they are in Chevy engines), there is no distortion. There is.

We use a deck plate on every "premium" engine we do (ALL Pontiacs are "premium" here). Because it takes more time, it costs a bit more and the cheapie-chugger Chevy boys don't want to ante up. They need it more than any other!

We don't use a boring bar, per se. We have diamond stones for the Sunnen hone. They remove material rapidly. So we "bore" the blocks with the hone. The plate is on the block from the beginning of the process until the end, when the "plateau" is completed.

Jim
Same here Jim! We torque plate about 98% of all blocks we do. We have torque plates for just about anything. Big bore Pontiacs, small bore Pontiacs, 400 Chevy, 350 Chevy, BB Chevy, FE Ford, BB Ford, SB Ford, 4.6L/5.4L Fords, BB Chrysler, SB Chrysler, V-6 Chevy, V-6 Mazda, 2300 Ford, New Dodge Hemi's, Toyota 4AG, Toyota 22R, 2.0L Mazda, Hell, we even have a torque plate for an Aston-Martin 5.3L[326 cid] V-8! I'm sure I forgot a couple also. We have access to even more torque plates that we don't have. We even have cylinder head torque plates for 2.0L Mazda and SB Chevy! All these engines distort from torque plates and all could use them. Let's face it, at $300-$400 a pop, if they didn't help, we wouldn't have so many. Some of them we even have 2 of for setting sleeves in aluminum blocks.

I wish we had the Sunnen Diamond hone, but we don't. We still use stones. If a block has .020" or less to go, we just hone them out. If we do bore, we always leave an absolute minimum of .010" left to hone but usually shoot for .012"-.015". Those diamond deals are pretty slick. Would like to get one someday!
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