PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS
 

Go Back   PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS >
Engine Tech
> Warp 6 Heads
User Name
Password

Warp 6 Heads KRE...Warp 6 heads...Owners can give there opinions along with their Dyno and track results

sponser links

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-09-10, 02:49PM   #16
Dragncar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mcinleyville CA
Posts: 641
Default

When did this test take place.
It sounds just like a test I posted about 2 years ago but with the prototype heads.
Blower manifold, trying to find a ignition miss so 2 doms were bolted on a adapter plate on a blower manifold, blower cam, but with giant zoomie headers. 900 HP too.
It was a high static CR for a blower engine, around 10-1 so pump gas was perfect trying to find the miss.
I asked Jeff why they did the test and he asked me if I ever tried to find a little miss on a engine screaming at 7-8 grand making , get this 2200 HP. Lot less noise with the blower off.
You know, I kind of got ripped for that post by the you know who crowd. It sure seems like everything I said about them is true.
Ken, are these heads the castings Jeff told me about that were supposed to be done last winter?
The Warp 6 name ?. Just wondering if the Kauffman boys were into Star Trek back in the day. I sure remember Captain Kirk saying to Scottie " warp factor 6" a lot. Warp factor 6 was the high speed cruise for the Enterprise. Anything higher and she would have problems.
Ken, any word on how the billet Hemi and billet RAV heads are doing? Can you share any numbers from some of those dyno tests.
So how does that billet block do with the slight main cap walk that it there with all the other blocks on the crazy HP engines. Does it cure it.
These heads will be at the very top of Pontiac HP wars. Closest thing to a all out Pro Stock head bolted on a Pontiac block.
Dragncar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-10, 05:13PM   #17
ken c
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Shreve,ohio
Posts: 319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
When did this test take place.
It sounds just like a test I posted about 2 years ago but with the prototype heads.
Blower manifold, trying to find a ignition miss so 2 doms were bolted on a adapter plate on a blower manifold, blower cam, but with giant zoomie headers. 900 HP too.
It was a high static CR for a blower engine, around 10-1 so pump gas was perfect trying to find the miss.
I asked Jeff why they did the test and he asked me if I ever tried to find a little miss on a engine screaming at 7-8 grand making , get this 2200 HP. Lot less noise with the blower off.
You know, I kind of got ripped for that post by the you know who crowd. It sure seems like everything I said about them is true.
Ken, are these heads the castings Jeff told me about that were supposed to be done last winter?
The Warp 6 name ?. Just wondering if the Kauffman boys were into Star Trek back in the day. I sure remember Captain Kirk saying to Scottie " warp factor 6" a lot. Warp factor 6 was the high speed cruise for the Enterprise. Anything higher and she would have problems.
Ken, any word on how the billet Hemi and billet RAV heads are doing? Can you share any numbers from some of those dyno tests.
So how does that billet block do with the slight main cap walk that it there with all the other blocks on the crazy HP engines. Does it cure it.
These heads will be at the very top of Pontiac HP wars. Closest thing to a all out Pro Stock head bolted on a Pontiac block.
This happened this last Wensday it was basically the same teat you were talking about only at that time Mark had a MR-1 with billet version of heads 511 C.I. this teat was with a billet block and cast heads that were poured solid and 535 C.U. we had changed some things on the head and wanted some more testing the first test was just under 900 hp and this one was 950 so looks like we are on the right track. Looks like the hemi will come next year look for them on Jeffs TAD next year and yes Mark was a star trek fan back in the day. The Rav 5 was just a project of Marks just to show he could do it and it only took 2 weeks start to finish but they don't see any future in that direction. The thing that limits hp in a wedge head is valve size and the HP's tigers and rav5's are already at max size in a Pontiac engine that’s why the canted valve and hemi are way ahead in this case, you can probably run a 2.5intake and 2.0 exhaust in the hemi and the canted valve head is only a little behind that.
Ken

Last edited by ken c : 10-09-10 at 05:18PM. Reason: corrections
ken c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-10, 09:42PM   #18
Sergef
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: West Hills, CA
Posts: 308
Thumbs up

Way to go! KRE power.
Sergef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-10, 07:27PM   #19
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken c View Post
The thing that limits hp in a wedge head is valve size and the HP's tigers and rav5's are already at max size in a Pontiac engine that’s why the canted valve and hemi are way ahead in this case, you can probably run a 2.5intake and 2.0 exhaust in the hemi and the canted valve head is only a little behind that.
Ken

it's good to hear this, Lou and I would be banned from PY and CP for the past 10 years if we made a post like that...

but that train left years ago, the CV-1 heads are on their 3rd production run already...you're late to the party on the canted heads

a reliable hemi-headed Pontiac will be difficult to make, without an entirely new block casting, with repositioned lifter bore angles. Then it's hemi only, and the current wedge heads won't work. Either that, or the rocker arms would have to weigh 3 pounds each, and be 4" long, to work the exhaust valves.
Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 04:31AM   #20
Pontiac Jack
M/T Hemi Guru
 
Pontiac Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phelps, NY
Posts: 697
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedo View Post
... with repositioned lifter bore angles...
... the rocker arms would have to weigh 3 pounds each, and be 4" long, to work the exhaust valves...
I wish you'd pay attention. Angling the lifters outboard only helps if the cam is raised up (more than an inch).

Umm... my forged Donovan hemi exhaust rockers are longer than 4 inches, and are somewhat heavy- can only reliably run 9,000 RPM (springs- 625 lbs. open, 2.030" heavy exhaust valves).
Pontiac Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 10:39AM   #21
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontiac Jack View Post
I wish you'd pay attention. Angling the lifters outboard only helps if the cam is raised up (more than an inch).

Umm... my forged Donovan hemi exhaust rockers are longer than 4 inches, and are somewhat heavy- can only reliably run 9,000 RPM (springs- 625 lbs. open, 2.030" heavy exhaust valves).
Anyone could see I wasn't talking literally there, Jack. I'll measure my Firepower rockers if you want me to. But tell the whole story- even with those rockers, your engine was eating pushrods like candy pretzel sticks. The Hemi valvetrain is all wrong, for a Pontiac.

perhaps you should review your own magazine article, where you state having to mill away half the block and run it dry, because the pushrods kept breaking, due to extreme valve angle- same problem M/T had in the 1960's, which is why he scrapped that head design. In the article you state yourself, that your engine was plagued with pushrod breakage.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/hemi-tractor-story2.html

http://www.wallaceracing.com/hemi-tractor-story3.html

doesn't seem like a salable product for the Pontiac aftermarket, to me- without a new block, with altered lifter bore angle

if you took the time to actually crack a book once in a while, and look at the engineering diagrams of the early Chrysler hemi block, and lifter bore angles, you'd see that the lifter bores are angled way down on the Chrysler, to run the hemi heads. The lifter bores on a Pontiac, are parallel to the cylinders, not angled. It's as easy as that.

instead you actually started hacking away at a Pontiac block with a grinder, to make them fit, to clearance that pushrod path

I went out and bought 7 Chrysler blocks w/hemi heads, to see just how they should go together, comparing them to Pontiac blocks. Cobbling those heads to a Pontiac block, is like going to hell to light a match.

so obviously the Chrysler engineers disagreed with you- back in 1951

look at the pushrod angle- you milled away half the block there, to get it to work on a Pontiac

pay attention- indeed




Last edited by Zedo : 12-29-10 at 11:07AM.
Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 10:55AM   #22
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default

here's the inner block wall/lifter bore area you had to mill away, circled in red, to get your Hemi heads to stop breaking pushrods.



we're not talking a high degree of repeatability, reliability, or sellable product with your mods, JACK. Every block would have to be a dry block like yours, half ground away.

now let's look at the feasibility- when finished your engine makes less power than an IA block with Tiger, CV-1, or E-heads, with a blower. I doubt your engine could even run with Scott Rex's naturally aspirated car, even though you have a blower on it. At least Beswick was able to run 6.80's with a blown RA V engine, back in the day. The M/T Hemi ran 8's, made 960 HP, with a blower and nitro, in a light rail, back in the day.
Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 11:19AM   #23
joeq
joeq
 
joeq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: northern connecticut
Posts: 33
Default

Slam dunk.
joeq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 11:21AM   #24
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default

Now let's take a look at the Pontiac block and lifter bore angle

notice how the lifter bore angle, is parallel to the lifter valley block wall





If I understand your magazine article right, that's where your block had to be ground away, and run a dry block, so the engine would stop breaking pushrods. That would mean you're running the block with the inner lifter bore wall gone, gaping wide open under the intake, with cylinder walls exposed.

I respect that you went in there and hacked away and made it work- but just curious-how many pushrods did you break, before you realized there was a problem ? Did it ever occur to you, to look at the engineering diagrams for the engines first, before attempting it ? You do realize, that if KRE or anyone else made hemi heads, they'd be designing it professionally to sell to the public, where they didn't have to grind away half the block for it to work.

what is that you said before to me- "I wish you would pay attention" ??

ok, I'll pay attention- take the heads and valley cover off that engine in your avatar, show us how the block is ground away for pushrod clearance.

Last edited by Zedo : 12-29-10 at 11:43AM.
Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 11:51AM   #25
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default

n/m

Last edited by Zedo : 12-29-10 at 12:22PM.
Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-10, 02:39PM   #26
Stan Weiss
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 782
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedo View Post
Now let's take a look at the Pontiac block and lifter bore angle

notice how the lifter bore angle, is parallel to the lifter valley block wall


If I understand your magazine article right, that's where your block had to be ground away, and run a dry block, so the engine would stop breaking pushrods. That would mean you're running the block with the inner lifter bore wall gone, gaping wide open under the intake, with cylinder walls exposed.

I respect that you went in there and hacked away and made it work- but just curious-how many pushrods did you break, before you realized there was a problem ? Did it ever occur to you, to look at the engineering diagrams for the engines first, before attempting it ? You do realize, that if KRE or anyone else made hemi heads, they'd be designing it professionally to sell to the public, where they didn't have to grind away half the block for it to work.

what is that you said before to me- "I wish you would pay attention" ??

ok, I'll pay attention- take the heads and valley cover off that engine in your avatar, show us how the block is ground away for pushrod clearance.
Do not know about a Pontiac with Hemi heads, but do know about Chryslers. Both the wedge and hemi blocks use the same lifter positions. We built a low deck Hemi (starting with a semi finished 400 block that was used at 4.25" [383 / 426] bore) the block had to be cut in the valley and parts of ????? brazed in for push rod clearance. Also ????? were added up by the deck for the extra studs and using a head gasket extra material was added to the deck. Hemi main caps were also added. All of the brazing was done by Al Mathon (spelling ?) The block did hold water. My point to all of this is if you put enough work and engineering into it you can get it to work.

Stan
Stan Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-10, 03:55AM   #27
Pontiac Jack
M/T Hemi Guru
 
Pontiac Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phelps, NY
Posts: 697
Default

Before I put you on 'ignore'- you should learn to read. One example: my hemi has never harmed a single pushrod, nor did any article about it ever say such a thing. Bye.
Pontiac Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-10, 11:21AM   #28
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default Chrysler

Chrysler didn't dikk around with wedge heads first, then try to adapt hemi or canted valve heads to it. Their first OHV engine back in 1951 was a hemi head engine, right from the get go. In 1954, they adapted canted valve heads to the same block- and that same block ran hemi and canted heads for Chrysler from 1951 to 1958. Look at where the pushrod guide holes are cast into the block, just above the cylinders with their own casting hole. The block was designed from the start, for hemi heads.

Jack, you are basically grinding the Pontiac block to that point, for pushrod clearance. It may work, but your dry block has engine oil running down on the cylinder liners- if you run that engine long enough, the oil will start to smoke on the cylinders, and may even catch the crankcase on fire- and cause a crankcase explosion. It should be a dry block, not oil draining onto the cylinder outer walls, where water should be. Drop oil on a hot exhaust manifold, what happens ?

Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-10, 11:24AM   #29
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default heads

Chrysler was way ahead of Pontiac back in the 1950's. Pontiac came out with a wedge 287 V-8 in 1955, by then Chrysler already had a 331 hemi and 331 poly canted valve engine.

Take a look at the Chrysler 1951-58 hemi head design, look where the pushrods come out of the head- they come out of the middle of the head- this is what I'm saying, the block has to be designed from scratch, to run these heads without problems

this is why you had to grind away so much material for pushrod clearance, on a Pontiac- you're using the same Firepower valvetrain that would fit this Mopar hemi, it bolts right to the M/T Pontiac heads, M/T copied these heads, to make yours

Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-10, 11:30AM   #30
Zedo
prodigal son
 
Zedo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,965
Default Chrysler poly canted valve

Chrysler had a canted valve head, WAY before Ford, Chevy did. They released it in 1954, and made it on their big block until 1958. The Chrysler Hemi block accepts both cylinder heads and intakes are the same. All you do is change heads, pushrods, and exhaust manifolds, and you can change from hemi to poly canted valve on the same block- pretty neat ain't it. This was before the Pontiac V-8 was even invented.

now, look where the Chrysler poly pushrods come out of the head, way down by the exhaust manifolds.

I went to he junkyard here, and bought 5 of these poly engines, just to take them apart and look at them- amazing design.

makes a Pontiac of that era, look lame actually

again, this is why you had to grind pushrod clearance in the Pontiac block, to use the M/T heads

Zedo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you guys are looking for an engine dyno to go to... bad69bird Forced Induction 13 07-31-09 02:02PM
The 409 Engine Masters engine gtofreek Proven Engine Combinations 61 05-30-08 02:42AM
Intake Manifold Dyno Test By SD Performance Gach Grape Vine - General Discussion 1 01-04-08 12:51AM
800 HP D-Port or 630 HP! Gach Grape Vine - General Discussion 41 03-11-07 03:21AM
Dyno tuned my car just recently! flynbrian 1958 - 1981 Pontiac Tech & Restoration 5 06-06-06 02:02AM


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 08:32AM.

Featured Ads
Ken's Speed & Machine
Mayhem Turbocharging

Carter Cryogenics.  What can we freeze for you?

Pacific Performance Racing

Central Virginia Machine Service.  Home of the Injun Engine!

All Pontiac Engine Kits

Larry's Auto Machine.  Full serivce auto, marine machine shop, domestic and foreign.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2007 PontiacZone.com
Page generated in 0.14732 seconds with 43 queries