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Old 12-04-08, 05:46PM   #1
Bruce Wilkie
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Default Aftermarket Cylinder head stack ranking discussion

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NOTE: This post and several others were moved from a thread started by Robert C. about the new 450cfm CNC Tiger heads Allpontiac just released.
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Nice Bob, keep them coming!

Well lets see what the KRE boys can dream up to top them. Hmm current rankings

It would be very nice to see this list refined further details costs best used on and made a sticky that gets updated.

I dont have wenzler data to fill in the gaps I havent included one offs or factory iron.

Its nice to see choices I'm not trying to start a bash fest just a stack ranking.

Race Ready fully ported Tigers 450cfm can go 500 it is said

CNC CV1 .............................460cfm Early results convertible exhaust not yet utilized

Tiger race ready CNC chamber and bowl 422cfm

Max ported HI Port did I see 420 somewhere??

As cast cv1 380 cfm

max wideports 370 cfm or so

Mild prepped HP 330-350 cfm depending whos bench

Ported E head non wide port 330-350 depending on whos bench

Ported KRE d port max 330-340

Basic cleaned up E head 300-310

SD cnc KRE dport 290
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Old 12-04-08, 06:34PM   #2
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This was posted on another board about the KRE D-ports:

"Once again, Robert, I'd sure like to see what Dan Barton here in Houston could do with a Tiger head. I know that I'm comparing apples with oranges, but Dan just finished up a set of KRE D-ports that flow over 370 CFM on the intake side (on a well calibrated SF bench), and Walter Lansing's 525" IA2 they're on has made close to 800 HP with them."

So, it looks like you can update the list with the KRE D-ports to 370. Also Langers Tigers flow 480 cfm.
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Old 12-04-08, 10:32PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EC View Post
Bob C. those are awesome numbers. The Tiger head is clearly the king and will remain that way for sometime.

Bruce W. I dont understand your ranking. Are you ranking just by flow numbers? Wouldnt the hp potential be a better way. The way I see the head ranking is this (based on current performance of cars with the heads)
Tiger
HP wide port
Edelbrock wide port
CV-1
HP standard port
Edelbrock standard port
KRE d-port
I kind of agree with EC..for this reason...so far the Tiger head has made
the most HP..and could argue flow the most...Langer's heads flow 480 cfm.

Now I think the CV-1 will probably take number two spot ( maybe soon who knows )once there's some proving track records. The HP wide port second only because Stallion has a proving track record with making HP...so we can't deny the HP potential.

The wide port has make 900 hp...Jeff Kinglers (sp) So definitely number
3 spot for the Wide Ports. I think EC got it right.

You guys deside and I'll make it a sticty
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Old 12-04-08, 11:17PM   #4
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The list will not be that way forever.
The Warp head will be in the mix.
And both versions of the HP will beat the E Wide Port.
I see it like this soon.
Tiger
CV-1
HP wide port
HP standard CNC
E wide port
The Warp head could throw a monkey wrench in the top slot.
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Old 12-04-08, 11:24PM   #5
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Holly Shit! Langer says his Tiger heads flow 400 cfm at .500 lift. Now
that's a kick ass head. Can I talked to uncle Tony....LOL..
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Old 12-05-08, 12:01AM   #6
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Did you know the CV-1 is offered in a billet head...also...with converterable exhaust ports..which means big exhaust flow numbers.
But big difference it won't need one of a kind valve train...like the Warp
head. I think there's also a CV-2 head might be available soon with seperate exhaust ports.

Might even be a billet tiger head available too....you never know.

Now we know why he makes serious power. Yeah imagine that we agreed
on some thing. I say we'll have to wait and see what the CV-1's do at the track.
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Old 12-05-08, 02:16AM   #7
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EC honest flow numbers rank for potential. HP is dependent on the builder. A new head has to be proven and tested to find the potential that was put into it. Look what Kaase did to his Pontiac to get the result he was looking for. Heck just a difference in valve jobs on a base E head makes a huge difference in performance compared to the flow numbers.(and that is builder dependant) I think the stack ranking summary should be by factual flow numbers and other important data(see my other post). After the summary in the details section we can add a note of best known power to date with that head if you want as long as it mentions if it was as delivered out of box or after massaging. This gives room for the newcomers like cv1 or whatever is rumored coming from KRE. This may give incentive to head companies like Edelbrock to get off their tail and make changes. It may also influence other head builders to offer a Pontiac head in their lineup as well. The best ones and the worst ones get to try to keep their status of best for x application and we benefit.


For example, on the 460 ford site the p51 was ranked #20 overall of all heads ever built for it, but #1 in its application pecking order. It listed from most current pro stock head to worst production cast iron.

We should approach it the same way. We should avoid biasing it with subjective data that can be end user/builder influenced whether its rules, fuel, displacement, valve job, compression, cam selection, or just plain biased opinion.(or all the above and more)
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Old 12-05-08, 02:36AM   #8
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This thread is carried over from the discussion that Bruce Wilkie started here:

http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23094

It's a sticky at the top of this engine tech section.

Funny how the wideports used to be the shit, but now they are way down the list.

I remember Rudy Diepuis telling me about the time he tried to get Edelbrock to cast him some heads without pushrod holes and they told him it couldn't be done because it's part of the CNC program. Rudy had to tell them to "lose the drillbit". I guess they didn't think of that. Rudy owned a machine shop so he knew a little bit about machining.

He must have been one of the first guys to do a wideport. He was also one of the guys that put up money in advance on the first run of IA1 blocks. He put up cash for 2 blocks...4 grand a pop.
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Old 12-05-08, 02:48AM   #9
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BTW Bruce, I'm assuming you are talking about repeatable packages that are available to anyone?

Of course we know there's endless combos when you get into custom porting by hand for example.
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Old 12-05-08, 09:23AM   #10
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You dont race flow benchs. I bet I can get 500 cfm out of my head but it would have a small exhaust valve and choke the motor.
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Old 12-05-08, 11:56AM   #11
Bob Maxi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EC View Post
By the way the KRE HP head can flow 430+cfm and will go 450cfm with a serious max effort port job.
Who cares. Why don't you cheerleaders start your own thread on that particular head? The quickest Pontiacs on the planet all run Tiger heads, period.
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Old 12-05-08, 03:45PM   #12
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First I would like you all to see this link for ideas. http://460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=18321 (yes the site is back up as of today anyway)

I would like to base this on rated flow as that reflects the likely potential vs being subjective to who has tested more and whose valve job etc.. I think summary first list and details follow summary.
Head must be readily available anyone can buy and expect delivery in a week or two. CnC package ok but no one off customized to someones specific application. It is fine to note in details highest factual known hp number acheived to date but not speculated hp. Also ok to state that flow numbers beyond x have been acheived with additional work as long as you have factual numbers. Cost will be included and not ranked just info. Will also state costs of support pieces required and based on a start from scratch basis vs what you may already own.

BTW I dont have all info so please input as needed this is the worksheet

Summary:

1)Race ready fully ported Tigers 450 cfm

2)The Race Shop CNC ported CV1 460 cfm

3)Tiger Race ready CNC chamber and bowl 422 cfm

4)As cast CV1 380 cfm

5) CNC wide port E head 370 cfm

6) KRE Highport basic prep 330 or 350 cfm depending on source of info

?)Max Ported KRE Hi port (cnc version available unknown)

7)Edelbrock non wide port fully ported 330-350 cfm (cnc version available ?)

8) Fully ported KRE D port 320-340 cfm (cnc available ?)

9) Edelbrock mild prepped 300-310 cfm

10) KRE Dport CNC by SD 290 cfm

11) Edelbrock out of box assembled pkg. 260-270 cfm(version dependant)

12) KRE D port as cast replacement.

?) Wenzler

Details:

1) Tiger Race ready fully ported 450 cfm. Intended for large cid race applications Dedicated Manifold suggested.
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Old 12-05-08, 04:54PM   #13
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I hope you noticed my #1 at 450 cfm (Tiger)vs #2 at 460 cfm(CNC CV1). We have yet to see if #2 will beat #1 as it was just developed. If it Does it moves ahead, and if something beats the 1 and 2 it gets placed accordingly. potential vs results. No need to defend, instead help make a useful shopping list over on my post. as not everyone has the need for the top dog. Was a time you were looking for better heads and Im sure known airflow was a part of that consideration. I know VERY WELL there is more to it than that and started a seperate thread to avoid further hijacking this one. If you dont want to contribute useful factual info and only subjective so be it. Not knocking the Tiger head, but most Horsepower only, as a criteria, is subjective to who built it and the sum of the parts used. Can I buy today and have shipped the exact same combo you are using John L, and just bolt it on, buy your exact cam etc., and if I assemble dilligently, make the same or close HP? Can I pick them up Monday? New?

My Summary is advertised flow numbers, and if not important, than why do you advertise them?????. My Details list that will follow the summary on the same thread allows to show highest HP if its factual. I put Tigers on top because of it. Because we dont race flow bench or DYNO either. Again I'm trying to make a useful ranking. Not everyone needs or can use heads the caliber of the Tiger. I want to be as unbiased as possible with it. NOT TRYING to cheerlead for anyone either. I see NO reason we shouldnt have a head ranking as nice as our competitors, or better, and I would appreciate some help with it. (this site disappears occaisionally but heres the link and I think we can do much better. http://460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=18321 it still worked just as I linked to it, and it wouldnt hurt for you guys to know what your competition has )

If you want to help our hobby (and me) heres our link http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23101

Thanks.
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Old 12-05-08, 05:12PM   #14
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Bruce...I'm a little confused as to what your trying to do ( don't take much to confuse me....LOL ) Are you trying to rate each head by flow numbers or track tested and proving HP or both. Also the cost and all the components involved...at that HP level.

Should there be two threads going on this one " locked " with updates from
time to time and one for discussion.

I could move the CV-1 stuff out of the Tiger head thread..I agree it
don't belong here.
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Old 12-05-08, 06:04PM   #15
Bruce Wilkie
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http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23101

topic 23301 should be open to allow others to add data to my list.

Summary section is primarily advertised flow and can move a little. Details portion is just that and known hp can influence stack ranking of the summary based on horsepower but it is admittadly subjective if I do. I think at this point the tiger is currently king even if advertised 10cfm less than CNC cv1. Not enough data yet on CNC cv1 to be #1 soley on flow numbers. That could change. Heck we could get another unknown head that eclipses both now.

Details section should have flow numbers, data including bore size in h2o etc., costs, including complimentary parts required to use them.

We dont race flow bench we dont race dyno and not many have John Langers resources to attain his power level even with his parts. SO.... Why is there fear of stack ranking based on their own advertised numbers??? vs only being able to brag as to whom makes the most power with that vendors part. Are they afraid they have to stay competitive to stay on top??

From the Ford site:

"The pecking order is debatable, and certainly the size of the engine that you intend to use them on comes into play here."

"Probably more importantly than the pecking order of the heads is who you choose to do the valve job, the porting and flow testing of the heads. In other words, the quality of the work. What I'm saying is, a head that is lower in the pecking order, can surpass a head that is above it due to being properly prepped."

So yeah it can get subjective but I want to keep it realistic too.
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