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Old 07-30-09, 01:11PM   #1
gtolou
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Default station wagon cam...

Yep, that is what it is.



I put a CCams HR in my SD headed IAII 535 (330cfm heads) - the 242/248 at .050 cam w/ 112 lsa. I figured Scorpion 1.65s would spice it up enough...and I "like" the drivability of small cams. My 69 gto vert/ 4speed, I can lug this motor down around town in fourth gear to 1500 rpms...It is like an RV cam or station wagon cam in this motor. Even a little small for me..



I guess best option would be the next size up - 248/254 HR?


I've never run a SR - and don't mind messing w/ valves once/twice yearly. Maybe a good time to try one? Something like 260/270 at .050 w/ 112 lsa? Prolly have to change springs..


HAS to be very drivable, but even my current cam is a little small, even for me.. Other info. 3.42 gears in back - pretty heavy car. 1 7/8 headers (thinking of going to 2").




Any ideas?
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Old 07-30-09, 02:20PM   #2
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Is the cam you currently have, Dave's old faithful or is the next size up it?

Night a day performance with a solid roller. But do you still want to lug it in 4th at 1500 rpm? If so a bigger cam may need a bit more gear.

That said, what about going with a bit more gear?

I guess what you are after needs to be said. You are a bit vague with what you are wanting.

Better lobe sound and performance? Just a little more top end but same driveability?

I'd think that engine could tame alot of cams to streetable.
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Old 07-30-09, 03:07PM   #3
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Question

What's you compression?
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Old 07-30-09, 03:29PM   #4
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A few tid bits that are somewhat related and might be helpful or maybe of interest to some....

In a Comp Cams tech article comparing a hyd roller to a solid roller they indicated it took 6 additional degrees of duration for the solid roller to be the "same" as the hyd roller at the valve with a 1.5 ratio rocker arm.

And recently within a short tech article in the Sept '09 issue of Hot Rod this was stated, "As for going to a pure solid roller cam, remember that cam manufacturer's published specs don't take into account running lash, so an otherwise eqyuivalent solid cam's specs appear larger and more radical compared with the hydraulic grind designed for a smilar application and operating range. Maintaining about the same performance, torque, idle vacuum, overall durability, and existing valve spring loads with a solid roller cam as you have with the hydraulic roller therefore requires moving up about 10 degrees in 0.050 duraction, assuming about 0.018-inch hot lash setting for the new solid grind."

A friend here in town recently switched from a Comp XE solid roller with 242/248-110 to a "smaller" SD Performance "old Faithful" hydraulic roller with 236/244-112 (using solid roller lifters. And with adequate spring pressure, not 150 or so on the seat !) and so far his testing on the track indicates no differance in performance. It's a 4.250 stroke application with a Performer RPM intake and "310 cfm" E-heads, no other changes were made.

On my 505 with a 4.250 stroke, 320+ cfm E-heads ( 234 cc intake runner volume) and with Victor intake & HP950 carb using a solid roller with 260/266-110 made peak power at 6000 rpm on the dyno. Your 4.500 stroke and/or intake choice will lower the peak rpm some. On my combo a switch to the Performer RPM intake lowered the peak power rpm to about 5800 with that cam.
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Old 07-30-09, 04:26PM   #5
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Perhaps the intake in your friends motor is the limiting factor and not allowing cam variations to change the performance?

But then if you look at it, the solid lifter'd old faithful cam is still smaller seat to seat than the solid roller he removed. And the wider LSA have reduced the overlap to not help anything.
Track performance didn't change, what about idle etc?

Maybe he could try changing springs and adding solid lifters and see what happens? What would be the typical lash when switching hyd to solid rollers on a cam? .020 or tighter?
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Old 07-30-09, 05:51PM   #6
gtolou
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"Just a little more top end but same driveability?"


That is prolly want I'm looking for.


Compression is 10.5:1. Heads are SD's 330 cfm w/ 72 cc. Dish in piston makes up for the compression. TII intake w/ 1" (nitrous plate) spacer. Shakers 950cfm, 4150 holley.


My rear gear is 3.42 - but I've switched to 26x10 slicks at the track - shorter tire to give it a little more "gear".

It'll spin my nitto's 275DR's on the street if I punch it at 20mph in first gear. Spins through second. Autogear muncie w/ M21 type/ratio gear set.

I've got the idle set at 800rpm or so.


I've only hit the 1/8 once at my track - first two passes w/ bad traction and my MT slicks. Last pass was 99.3 mph, but 60ft. still bad at just over 1.9 seconds. Can't remember the 1/8time (?7.43?). The track is just for fun - I am no pro at racing....




Maybe I shouldn't fuss. Just seems so well-mannered at low rpm's that I figured I HAVE to be missing out on some HP with that cam...


Maybe is just me - once I get a combo going, I figure I have to so something to try to make it better......
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Old 07-30-09, 05:56PM   #7
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What ICL is the cam set at?
If you want to lose a little bottom and make a bit more up top. You could retard the cam and see what happens. If you like the results this will also tell you a larger cam will benefit.
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Old 07-30-09, 06:09PM   #8
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Wink

Sometimes that 112 isn't all that people seem to think it is.

It's not the cats meow people claim it to be fitting every combo out there. But hey people read what they want to read.
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Old 07-30-09, 07:12PM   #9
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As mentioned with my friends change the track performance (mph) so far is the same. Yes idle quality with the new set up is a bit smoother and it has a tad bit more vacumm, and he 'thinks' it has less valvetrain noise... probably a placebo effect! It's a street car and track performance is not paramount so he is pleased. He used Solid roller lifters on both cams and with same valvesprings, about 200 lbs seat pressure. Lash on the XE solid roller was 0.016 and he is currently running 0.006 lash with the hyd roller cam.

As indicated with the Comp Cams tech article I mentioned, I'll bet that the seat duration AT THE VALVE is about the same with the 236 hyd roller with .006 lash as the previous 242 solid roller with .016 valve lash.

I'm not recommending it, he's turned into a wussy I thought it was just fine before. The car used to run well into the 10's with a 254 @.050 XE solid roller, then he went down to a 248 @ .050 XE solid roller, then to a 242 @ .050 XE solid roller, all with a 110 lobe separation..... and now down to this current 236 at .050 hyd roller with the 112 lobe separation. Hey, monkey see, monkey do

Last edited by Steve C : 07-30-09 at 07:51PM.
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Old 07-30-09, 08:01PM   #10
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I appreciate all the input. I don't remember what ICL it is installed at (I am w/ family on vacation - don't have the card in front of me). It was degreed in per CCams reccs.


As mellow as it is - seems to pull great to 5800, where I've set my shift light. Funny thing is that it really only pulls about 11+ vacuum at idle. I'd figure that it'd be much more.


I've got it timed at 38degrees total and have just put in the FAST dual sensor unit (bungs went in yesterday before leaving for the beach) - when I get back sunday - I'm going to AFR it at idle, pt. throttle and full. (never done AFR adjusting - figure it is about time).



My first treck to a 1/4 track is next weekend..
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Old 08-02-09, 07:46PM   #11
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What is your trap RPM?
Have you tried shifting earlier?
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Old 08-03-09, 03:13AM   #12
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If it is the ET you are worried about it is time to tune the chassis.
There is a good .4 to be made up there in the 60' time.
The shorter tires are breaking loose ,not loading the motor enough through first and second ?Try slipping the clutch more on the launch.Launch RPM?

Taller & wider tire would load it more coming out and will reduce wheel spin but may require raising the launch RPMs up .
More torque applied to forward motion.
Drive line parts better be up to it as the slip points start to tighten up.
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Old 08-03-09, 09:51PM   #13
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Yeah, prolly still A LOT left to do before I bag this cam. It IS supposed to be streetable and it really is.

In the 1/8 the trap RPM is about 5900.


I have NOT tried dropping the hammer on my Autogear muncie yet - plenty afraid that it'll blow - have launched at 3000rpm max - buddy and I are hitting the 1/4 mile for the first time this weekend and I wanted to protect it until I go there.

Besides the tranny, the rest of the stuff is okay - 12bolt rear w/ forged axles and richmond 3.42 gears. Quicktime bellhousing, built driveshaft, drag shocks, antihop arms, boxed rear arms, etc. Ram dual disc clutch. Pretty sure the tranny'll go first...

I never could get my old 455 off the line w/ 28x10's without some bog - so I switched to 26.5x10 MT slicks (that was before this motor). I can't really get anything wider than a 10' slick in there....



I took it out yesterday and today w/ a new FAST AFR meter tuning it - it gets to my shift light (5800) before I have time to crap - so maybe I shouldn't fuss....



It is just sooo streetable below 2000rpm. Heck maybe w/ this 535 I can have my cake and eat it too.



I appreciate the advice and I'll post numbers from this weekend...
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Old 08-04-09, 11:15PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C View Post
A friend here in town recently switched from a Comp XE solid roller with 242/248-110 to a "smaller" SD Performance "old Faithful" hydraulic roller with 236/244-112 (using solid roller lifters. And with adequate spring pressure, not 150 or so on the seat !) and so far his testing on the track indicates no differance in performance. It's a 4.250 stroke application with a Performer RPM intake and "310 cfm" E-heads, no other changes were made.

I do not understand this, a hyd roller grind with solid rollers...isn't this now a solid roller? Do you adjust it with lash?

Is it possible the engine was over cammed with the larger roller?

John
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Old 08-05-09, 12:02AM   #15
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Quote:
I do not understand this, a hyd roller grind with solid rollers...isn't this now a solid roller? Do you adjust it with lash? Is it possible the engine was over cammed with the larger roller?

John
One of the reasons for using the solid roller's on the hyd roller is because
the solid are allot lighter then the hyd rollers. Yeah you do adjust it like a
solid...be takes very little lash. .010 to .015.

The hyd roller lifters are so heavy it take more spring pressure, less with
a lighter solid. The first hyd roller cam set ups had allot of problems with
lifter float..because the lifters were so heavy and because of the valve spring perssure needed.

I built a SBC 400 CI for a friend and the thing would float the lifters
at 6200 rpms. Had to put a rev kit in to keep it from floating the lifters.

Little 400 CI motor in a 68 Nova..close exhaust..pump gas and it would
run 11.60's..with a hydraulic roller with 236/244-112
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