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Old 05-06-07, 01:02PM   #31
Rarerodder
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Default Re: Oakland

Moving it to an 'Oakland V8' thread could make researching for this info easier in the future.
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Old 05-07-07, 02:10AM   #32
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Default Re: Oakland

I'll strongly second that motion for an "Oakland V8 engine" thread. Anybody feel we should keep the "Oakland V8 modifications" in yet another separate thread? Just thinking that some 'purists' might be offended to find 'mods' being discussed in a thread about the original engine? If preferred, I could send my 'ramblings' about modifications to RareRodder by private message- although I would hope to keep them 'public', to attract more criticism/corrections/suggestions/ridicule, etc. Please advise.
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Old 05-07-07, 10:33AM   #33
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Oh no, I realize there are folks who won't agree with modifying an Oakland V8. Heck, I probably wouldn't do it if it were a complete engine still in the car. But, as it does come in pieces and the block has been welded, it's the ideal candidate for some 'upgrades' It'll still be an Oakland V8 and will live in an early little brother or sister Pontiac. Let the masses know our trials and tribulations on this project. I think all will find it interesting.
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Old 05-07-07, 11:41AM   #34
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Default Re: Oakland

OK, I think we're close enough to unanimous on a new thread. How do we go about it? Should we move all the Oakland V8 posts from the Oakland thread? I'd like to do that. Injuntom?
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Old 05-07-07, 11:55AM   #35
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I'll work on it tonight when i get home
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Old 05-08-07, 12:14PM   #36
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Default Oakland V8 Discussion

Ok guys, let the games begin! :Gach2

I moved all the posts after the topic went totally to the V8s, and copied the ones leading up to it.
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Old 05-09-07, 01:45AM   #37
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Default Re: Oakland V8 Discussion

Thanks for the new thread, Tom.

I found a few other posts where RareRodder and I began talking about modifying an Oakland V8 for his roadster-

"1930 V8 Oakland parts for sale" post #8
"Holy cow..." posts #21, 22, 24, 25, 26
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Old 05-09-07, 02:38AM   #38
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Default Re: Oakland V8 Discussion

RareRodder- I hope you can deal with me "backing up" in the design process- I'll attempt to confine it to the earliest stages, to not waste effort/money/machining/etc.
I had suggested that task #1 is deciding if we can live with a three main bearing crank, based on engine output. After trying to envision intake valve unshrouding approaches, I feel that intake flow will severely limit engine power, perhaps to the extent of not needing to think about five main bearings (the pictures lead me to believe there's room for a very rigid 3-main 90 degree crank). Therefore, I now suggest that task #1 is to fully develop an intake tract configuration (including chamber & piston crown), get the flow numbers on it, and base maximum engine output on that flow.
To be continued...

Edit: If you're thinking at all about forced-induction, ignore everything I've said- and we'll go back to square one!
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Old 05-09-07, 03:14AM   #39
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A blown Oakland V8? :Gach2
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Old 05-09-07, 04:00AM   #40
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Default Re: Oakland V8 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by INJUNTOM View Post
A blown Oakland V8?
Yeah, you know... nothing too wild, just your everyday blown 'Oaky' 251 flathead!
(I see now, that should have been my first question- blown or N/A?)

Trivia- I just noticed that the Oakland Indy car (1930?) has raised-white-letter tires!
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Old 05-09-07, 11:51AM   #41
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Default Re: Oakland V8 Discussion

Thanks Injuntom for re-organising this thread.

Here are a few more photos. The first just shows that there is no combustion chamber in the block. It also shows how close the valve seats are to the bore and to the intersection of the two gasket faces. Bear in mind that although the seats are close to the bore, there is much more room for water jacketing between them with the valve stems at 45 to the bores. It doesn't show how badly shaped the ports are or how badly the valve guides and their bosses constrict the throats.

The next two show the shape of the chamber in the head. The roof of the chamber is flat and at 30 to the top of the piston.

The next two show a suggestion for a pop top piston to raise the compression ratio. Unfortunately the pop top covers the spark plug completely and I believe needs a fire slot as shown. It also leads to 100% squish which I have no idea as to the merits of or otherwise. Perhaps the fire slot should be extended to the point where the pop top joins the original piston top to relieve the compressed gasses in the squish area. The original C.R. is 5:1 . This piston will give about 7 or 7 1/2 to 1. It's sobering to consider that to get from 5:1 to 7:1 we need to block up 1/3 of the original chamber.

The last two show the differences between the early and late conrods. The change point was at engine 308246, that's quite late in 1930. Sorry Rarerodder I don't know your engine no. but I do know the frame no. it came out of and you are probably out of luck. There is only one engine in Australia with a late enough engine number for these rods and it's the one in the roadster. The early rods have white metal on the outside face but the later ones do not making it much simpler to fit them with replaceable shells.
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Old 05-10-07, 01:55AM   #42
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Hello all Oakland/Pontiac optimists! I picked up the motor today from Otistn. Otistn, thanks for everything and especially for reinforcing my belief that old car peoples are good peoples.

Hugh, you are right, I have the older, less meaty, conrods (I like that term). I'm sitting in a hotel room tonight, after a business dinner, I've been outside looking and relooking at all the parts in the bed and backseat of my pickup. Whoo, do I have a project ahead of me just figuring out how it goes back together! Looks a little different from the small-blocks I've built in my past. P-Jack, I'm gonna be relying on you a good bit here! Hope you don't mind! I'm having my doubts that this is gonna be a powerhouse-I'm wondering if we can break the 100 horses barrier here! I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. But, I'll be satisfied with a wild, first guy to do it, rodded "Oaky 251 flathead". And, I'm thinking that adding "blown" to the front of that description may not be such a bad idea. That is because like Hugh describes, this motor just isn't designed to make alot of improvement to flow. That is without 'forcing' it thru. So, anybody got a vintage centrifugal supercharger laying around they're not using?

The block itself is big but very thin walled I can pick it up myself-with a lot of grunting, of course. Not alot of meat to be overboring or porting. And, Hugh you're right, those valve guides do really restrict the flow through the intake ports.

I was initially picturing this build with possible internal improvements to increase power without overly risking reliability (as reliable as a 77 year old motor can be) and doing some cosmetics such as custom intake(s) with two (three?) one barrels, and wild but cool exhaust (still trying to visualize what cool exhaust will look like). But, I'm open to any and all suggestions and ideas from the gang here! So let's here them and P-Jack let me know what you need from me-info, pics, measurements, etc. The first order is going to be getting the surface rust cleaned from all the components. Block/heads, etc. is not pitted but looks like they've been sitting outside for a while. Cam and Crank are less rusty but will need to be turned a little to clean them up.
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Old 05-10-07, 03:17AM   #43
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Default Re: Oakland V8 Discussion

Hugh- Thanks for the additional photos. I agree that dreaming up piston/chamber shapes will be a challenge.
Rodder- What a bunch of 'loot' to be hauling home!
Not sure you can "depend on" me for very much- prior to a week ago, I'd never seen ANY of the inside of that engine. I'd just love to be able to help you be driving a hopped-up Oakland flatty V8. I foresee a lengthy project, so if you could get the help of someone who's done exactly this sort of thing, I'd try to get their input- are you familiar with the very-modified flatty in Ron Main's (300 MPH?) streamliner? I've only been on the phone with Ron to buy hotrod movies, but he seemed quite friendly- maybe he'd consider 'consulting' about your project?
I can only offer my wacky ideas, and some custom machining- which I've done a lot of- at a very low cost.
So- how to choose a starting point? Seems to me that you, the owner, will need to set a minimum HP number (to determine up-front about a 3-main crank, and about forced induction). And also a maximum dollar number, since all farmed-out work is expensive- like welding-up and regrinding your cam, obtaining a 90-degree crank, etc. Do you think this is the way to start?
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Old 05-10-07, 11:07AM   #44
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Rarerodder it already makes 82 BHP at 3000 RPM so 100 should be a walk in the park.

Beware the camshaft. Because of the roller followers the lobes need to be harder than for flat faced followers. Welding up of damaged lobes is not sucessful that I have seen. The shaft in my red sedan had been welded twice and was noisy when I bought it. I was lucky enough to have a good one (they are not common). I pulled the sump off and was alarmed at the amount of debris in it. Some new ones have been made here in Australia. I think a finished one is about AUS$1200 (about US$800?). The lobes usually fail worse towards the back end of the shaft.

I really don't think that a 90 crank and cam will give a useful (if any)improvement for a really huge expenditure. Serious performance V8s are designed with flat cranks because they give a better firing order. If you use the original crank you will have to deal with the vibration. The simplest solution would be to use what Oakland made because you already have it (hopefully) and it works well as well as being a fascinating conversation piece. You need the laminated spring front engine mounts and the heavy triangular brackets that connect the springs to the front corners of the block. The spring packs are about 8" X 2" and about 5 or 6 leaves for a total thickness of about 1/8" rivetted into a "U" shaped bracket originally rivetted into the front of the frame side rails. You also need the synchronizer lever and arm. You can see these in the photo of the engine in bits between the crank nose/pistons and the head.

Given the difficulty of significantly increasing the compression ratio and the amount of work involved and limited scope in improving the ports, supercharging makes very good sense. I suspect that a roots type would give more driveable results.

Our experience with the roadster suggests that the engine is reasonably robust at least in standard form when driven very hard. John lost his licence a few years ago and found a friend to drive him in an event he really wanted to do. This guy at one point gleefully told him that it could do 60 MPH in second gear. It does have a 3.6 diff in it and a close ratio gearbox but that would still be a lot more revs than Oakland intended.

Jack, I am pretty keen to produce the pop top pistons. Do you have any thoughts about them? Particularly implications of 100% squish area and size, shape and direction of the fire slot.

A guy here in Australia makes high compression aluminium heads for 1928-29 Oaklands because there is a big problem with the original heads cracking. The increase in compression ratio to probably about 7:1 is achieved by filling in a lot of the chamber that was above the cylinder. This leads to a very big squish area and a reduced passage between the combustion chamber and the cylinder bore. These engines certainly go very well but end up very noisy, rather like main bearing rumble which I presume is combustion noise. Any ideas why this is so? I'd be very disappoionted if my pop top V8 pistons caused this sort of noise.
Hugh.
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Old 05-13-07, 09:23PM   #45
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Default Re: Oakland V8 Discussion

Hi gang, I finally got everything unloaded into the shop this weekend and have rough assembled just the outside of the engine. The block is gonna need work before trying to assemble the internals. I'm still trying to go through the bucket of 'small' parts to see what might be missing. I thinking I may be missing valve keepers, but that could be something that gets changed anyway. It has a NOS cam that unfortunately has a small amount of surface rust on the lobes. Crank had a tag on it as well identifying it as an "Oakton" It may be NOS or early removal as it does not look worn but again, some surface rust. All large or major components seem to be there with exception of the carb and air cleaner-two components I wouldn't have used anyway but would like to have had. I will get the pics as soon as I can get my scanner back up.
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