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Old 11-05-09, 04:49PM   #16
John Langer
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Originally Posted by EC View Post
John are you willing to post what those heads flowed at .500 lift?
if memory is correct, they were atleast 420cfm.
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Old 11-05-09, 04:52PM   #17
John Langer
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So why arent the heads offered with the .100 offset to begin with. I dont see what the down side would be. Just make all the heads with the guide moved to that position. Why offer the head with the guides in a less desirable position and make the end user move it?
The heads weren't originally designed to have the valve where I put it. I moved the intake valve to get it away from the cylinder wall and reduced the exhaust valve size. You need ALOT of cam to make it work. It is not practical for the average user. The only other person that has my valve configuration is Rex.
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Old 11-05-09, 10:45PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Langer
The heads weren't originally designed to have the valve where I put it. I moved the intake valve to get it away from the cylinder wall and reduced the exhaust valve size. You need ALOT of cam to make it work. It is not practical for the average user. The only other person that has my valve configuration is Rex.
That's right John , we owned castings already at the time and the machining requires...well...special attention. It is sort of application specific to position the valves like this for a couple of reasons , like John said in it's current configuration , it ends up being not practical for the average user.

EC , I would'nt exactly call it "less desireable" in it's current position...they still support well over 1,000 h.p. . But the changes...that's what we're calling "Tiger 2" .
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Old 11-05-09, 11:55PM   #19
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Originally Posted by John Langer View Post
if memory is correct, they were atleast 420cfm.
DAMN! Movin some air there Guy!
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Old 11-21-09, 02:09AM   #20
twinturrbo406
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Default Velocity Readings ??

Did you have any velocity readings on those ports John ?? What was the Volume and average CSA ? What did they flow at .300 ?? What exh./int. ratio did you end up with ?? How much Compression ??
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Old 11-21-09, 06:36PM   #21
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Default Really ??

Well, EC, that was a real informative post. Thank you for the helpful statement. I would be willing to bet, that if you were to try and run Langers exhaust/int ratio, on say ...... a moderate C.I. blown pump gas motor, with a streetable Hyd. Rllr, in a 3,500+lb car, i think you'd find that your statement couldn't be more incorrect.
But what do i know ??
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Old 11-21-09, 08:22PM   #22
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Default Where ??

Where did it come from ?? Well, it was based on what you said "Who cares about ex/in ratio? That doesn't mean anything" .... all i did, was simply give you a quick example as to how in-accurate that statement was.
You didn't make mention of what you thought about exh. port shapes, and or port sounds while flow testing, you simply said....... " Who cares about ex/in ratio? That doesn't mean anything ...." Where i live, exh/int means alot when dealing with pump gas motors, you having one, i would think you'd know that. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 11-21-09, 08:36PM   #23
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Default Help .....

Well, basically, a compression motor can tolerate less exh/int ratio because of the improvements from the high compression and the effects that has on cumbustion. Which aids in the blowdown event. Basically. Pump gas fuel is really crappy stuff, it needs alot of help to get things done. Like your wonderful set of cylinder heads that you have for one.
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Old 11-22-09, 01:18PM   #24
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O.k. , o.k. ... Twinturbo , everything you just said is basically correct . but the questions were originally about Langer's heads. I know they are similar on the exhaust side to the ones we do...because that's all the engines require...and that's about 55-60% of the intake , if you wanted a ratio. I've had the port up to 305 cfm...and then I made it better and it flows 270-275. John's never going to give you details about his heads...he races a very competitive heads-up class. You will never see pictures and such along with a prescription for how to create them...the guys who know...just know. I't's nice to compare notes on some of this stuff so we all learn from it , but some stuff just can't be discussed . You mentioned EC's wonderful pump gas head , which ironically has very similar exhaust port number to Frank G.'s 1,080 h.p. 541. Do you think that's coincedence ? Or do you believe once the correct cross-section and exit speed has been established relative to displacement and RPM (Frank's make peak power @7200 and EC's at 7300) ...the kind of engine that it is (street or race) does'nt matter? Because that's the truth. Flow numbers and int./ex. ratios in reference to the exhaust port don't mean as much as we used to think...or at least the more we learn...the less important they become. Make the port work ...forget about the flow number.
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Old 11-22-09, 04:29PM   #25
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Default Langer won't spill the beans ??

Lol, i was hoping Langer might be tempted to maybe show something, hey, you never know until you ask, right ? Well, my response to EC's was basically stating that to simply say exh/int ratio doesn't matter, is incorrect. Boosted motors don't like having the %'s that low, n/a stuff can push the %'s further, but i was just asking to see where Langer was at as far as exh/int % ....
I know we weren't discussing Boosted apps here, but i seemed a little blunt to make a that suggestion about it not mattering at all. But yes, comparing notes is always a good thing. Getting people to do it, sometimes isn't easy, lol. But, we've discovered lately, down here in Fl that the added ethenal in the fuel, for some reason has been responsive to some increases in exh/int ratios, no huge changes, but, when it's a true street motor that gets a bunch of miles on it every year, we can't poke the pistons out of the deck and such, which helps with this problem too. Some of these combo are NOS motors too, which have some effect on what we are seeing.
It is very interesting for me to compare street engine assemblies, to more aggressive combos though, always looking for something new to try.
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Old 11-22-09, 04:30PM   #26
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Default .........

So, i take it that was a no, on any pics of Langers Heads popping up here, ?????? Not even a 2-3 footer ?? low resolution even, lol !!
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Old 11-22-09, 07:53PM   #27
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Big Speed quote "make the port work...forget about flow numbers". Isnt that what Tony at BES has said recently. Must be true.
This new AP/CFM,CRE engine that makes 1080HP with a single , repeatable CNC head,cast intake without a ton of work is a big leap for us Pontiac guys. It is within a few HP of Rex and Langer with less expense.
Its a big bracket/super gas engine and it is almost the Pontiac NA horsepower leader.
I bet the car has the Pontiac E.T. record soon. Give that car a sheet metal intake with s Doms and a dry sump and see what happens.
I do not know about pump gas being "crappy". There is more energy in it than race gas. And regular has more energy in it then premium. Its the higher cylinder pressures that can come into play with race gas that changes everything.
Filling that cylinder and cylinder pressure is everything.
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Old 11-22-09, 09:27PM   #28
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Default ???

I can tell you whats in it, 4 of the last 5 engines we've built down here, with BLP carbs, have had to be torn down for cleaning, there is this mysterious black crap, in the blocks, so i don't know how much energy that black stuff has in it, but you never know. And yes, the level of engines you are talking about here, can get-a-way with it. I never disputed that. But even your motor EC, is not a true street engine, not one that gets 10,000+ miles a year, with a/c and no gear, and no convertor, and limited camshaft.
This is the area or type of combo, that i'm saying exh/int is more important. All i was doing, was simply trying to show that it does matter, just depends on what you are building. Not everyone has a max effort pump/race gas engine. When the VE goes down, so do many other things. Not just peak power. it really creates a whole lot of problems. I think you are a little off, by the way you make it sound like, pump gas fuel, is some how more potent, than any kind of race gas. If that were the case, Nascar would all be running pump gas motors.
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Old 11-23-09, 02:11PM   #29
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No one ever said pump gas is more potent than race gas twin. There are more BTUs in pump gas than race gas but because race gas has a higher temp flash point you can take advantage of using higher cylinder pressures in a race gas combo.
There is more "pop" in a race gas engine because of the higher cylinder pressure mix being lit off. Not because there is more "bang" in race gas.
Higher cylinder pressures mean more available heat, and heat = energy.
When you put race gas in a pump gas engine it slows down.
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Old 11-23-09, 02:57PM   #30
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Default Ok .....

Well if you say " more available heat, and heat = energy " .... then can you tell me why a compression motor ( on race gas) will run cooler, than the same motor at low compression on pump gas ??
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