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Proven Engine Combinations Engine combinations, and the resultant HP and/or E.T.s

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Old 02-25-07, 02:06PM   #1
gtofreek
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Cool The 409 Engine Masters engine

The engine I built for Engine Masters in 2004 was as follows:

1. 1970 400 block, filled to bottom of freeze plugs with block filler, Mega Brace installed on lifter bores. Zero decked and honed to 4.160 with torque plate. Stock 2 bolt caps with ARP studs.
2. Stock 400 crank, cut down to BB Chevy 2.200 rod journal and stroked .015 to 3.765.
3.Custom JE flat tops made for 6.800 rod, .043 top ring, 1/16 second, 3/16 oil ring. No gas ports. 4.160 bore.
4. Speed-Pro 4.155 bore file fit Plasma Moly rings. I used these rings as they would have a little less tension in the 4.160 bore. Ring gaps at .022 and .024, top and bottom.
5. C.A.T. 6.800 BB Chevy rods.
6. Melling High Performance oil Pump.
7. Stock oil pan and Windage tray[modified].
8. Comp Cams Custom solid roller. 242/246 @ .050 on a 112 LSA. Little over .600 lift. Installed at 106 intake centerline.
9. C.A.T. solid roller lifters.
10. Roll Master Timing set.
11. Fel-Pro performance head gaskets.
12. Edelbrock RPM heads, mildly ported to 300/210 @ .600. Combustion chambers, intake and exhaust ports coated with thermal barrier coatings by Tech-Line coatings.
13. Ferrea 2.11/1.77 RAIV valves.
14. Manley Valve springs. These springs were too much as a double so I removed the inner for a pressure of 220 seat and 550 open on just the outer. I figured this would be enough spring for the 6500 RPM limit. They showed no signs of valve float.
15. 7/16 BB Chevy rocker studs.
16. C.A.T. 1.65 ratio stainless steel roller rockers.
17. C.A.T. E-head stud girdle.
18. Edelbrock Victor intake, Ported. Coated with thermal barrier coatings inside and out.
19. 950 HP Holley carburetor modified by Jeff Koerner of Koerner Racing Engines. Flowed over 1000 CFM.
20. Hooker Super Comp headers, ceramic coated.
21. MSD Billet distributor with 6AL box. MSD plug wires.
22. Magna flow 3" mufflers.
23. All engine parts including the block and heads were Nitrogen frozen. I beleive this releives any stresses in the parts and allows the cylinders to expand round instead of distorting. I beleive this is how I got away with .043 top ring without gas ports. The valve springs actually gained a few pounds of pressure after freezing them.

We were on a tight budget with this and when I was asked by a freind to participate, I had never heard of the contest before. I had 2 days to read and understand the rules and design an engine on paper to submit. We had one shot at picking the right parts and assembling it. I did all design and machine work and porting on it. My Freind Bobby was in charge of tuning it and Charles paid for it. We got it built on Sunday, Dynoed it on Monday and Teusday, shipped it to New York on Wednesday. We didn't have the luxery of trying different cams and headers and intakes or what not so we put together what we had and went playing! The engine made 535 Ft. Lbs. @ around 4500 and 571 HP. from 6100-6500! These were #'s corrected to sea level with no friction added. The actual HP #'s from testing with 4600 ft. air quality were 542 HP.
We got to New York were we met some neat people. We loaned some of our extra parts to other competitors that were in a bind. Charles made the call to install a new set of Accel plug wires and that was a big mistake. 3 of them were bad. And they were on cylinders #1,3, & 5 to boot! This made me sick when they tried to start our engine. It took a while to fire and when it did, it shook and missed real bad. The whole concrete floor was shaking. Since the rules dictated that you could not touch the plugs or plug wires once in the dyno room, we had to run it that way or be DQ'ed. We came too far to get DQ'ed so we ran it the way it was. It still loaded up at 2300 rpm just fine and still made 410 ft. lbs. at that point. It peaked at 538 HP and 498 ft. lbs uncorrected. Corrected it made 541 HP. and 500 ft. lbs. The correction factor was pretty much non-existant since the air was equal to about 50 feet. This engine on 5 cylinders made almost the same HP uncorrected on the DTS dyno as it made on our dyno uncorrected. This is why I questioned the 806 HP d-port head 469. The DTS and Superflow dyno's figure their friction factors differently than the DEPAC software we use. I think our engine would have made around 640-650 horse on 8 cylinders. I think we could have made it to the top ten if we had left the plug wires alone. It ran flawlessly here in Tucson. We will never know though and that's what hurts the most. I had a lot of time in this engine for it to end up like this. We had about the only streetable engine there as our compression ratio was only 10.8:1. Most were running 12:1 and up. They were pinging real bad on the dyno. Ours didn't ping at all. One of the top qualifiers coundn't even get his all out race engine to load up at 2300 without it backfiring and burning up his air filter! You see, I thought this was a compitition for the strongest "STREET" engine. Not for race engines trying to run on 91 octane pump gas! So I designed it for street, not many others did.
Engine Masters changed the rules in 2005 to allow spark plug and wire changes after in the dyno room. I guess our bitching about that rule actually did some good! One more thing, we read the rules as saying that any O2 sensor bungs in the headers had to be plugged so we bought headers without O2 sensor bungs. We get there and everyone was running O2 Sensors! I guess the bungs were plugged, just with O2 sensors! Everyone else had that tuning advantage that we didn't have. They need to make some of these rules a little more clear. We learned a lot from this and it was an experience I will never forget. I would like to do it again someday if we can find someone who needs and engine like this built. At the shop I work in now[Koerner Racing Engines] we have the ability to do much more in depth and precise work than I did at Doc's engine where I worked in 2004. Good luck to anyone else entering this contest! It's great!
:Gach2
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Old 02-25-07, 05:57PM   #2
Gach
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

I hear you, rules need not apply for a certain few. I heard Kaase had over 200dyno pulls on the 508 Pontiac motor. I think everyone has figured out, that the the winners where actually all out pump race motors. Not street motors at all, although I guess they could be detune, kind of puts you in the real world of reality.
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Old 02-25-07, 05:59PM   #3
Gach
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

PS: thanks for all the information, I'd say your entry was a real street motor very impressive to me for a 400 pump motor. I notice the E-heads only flowed 300 cfm, so much for the magic aluminum D-ports.
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Old 02-25-07, 09:37PM   #4
gtofreek
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

I didn't go crazy on the heads because I figured 300 cfm was plenty for this 409. Wanted to keep ports as small as possible. Others I talked to ported theirs as much as 360 and didn't do much better. You have to consider what you are doing with the engine and build around that.
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Old 02-25-07, 10:07PM   #5
Gach
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

That's what I figured but good to hear it from you. Combination - the whole combination.
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Old 02-26-07, 01:42AM   #6
INJUNTOM
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

Paul, I noticed you ran a lot of CAT parts. was this because of the budget or do you have good luck with these parts?

I also noticed that you DIDN'T list the parts that i know to be problematic - which is the flexplate and damper.

I had bought, and balanced my engine with a CAT SFI flexplate, and when i changed my mind, and decided to run a TCI plate, i had to get the new plate balanced at a cost of $95 because the CAT plate had holes drilled in it effectively counterweighting it.

I also had one of their "Fluid" dampers, and found it to be an extremely tight fit - about .002 interference. I ended up going with a used ATI that i got for $75.

Of course we have all heard that CAT rods are good as long as you check all specs on the machined surfaces.

Just wondering about their other stuff like rockers, etc....
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Old 02-26-07, 11:47AM   #7
gtofreek
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

We used a lot of C.A.T. parts because we were on a budget and because they were a sponsor and gave us a good price. The balancers and flexplates are as you say. We don't use them. Had good luck with the other parts.
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Old 02-26-07, 04:42PM   #8
INJUNTOM
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

Why the hell did they counterweight the damn flexplates? Jeez :Nuts

I have a brand new one hanging on the wall that I can't and won't use....also wouldn't consider selling it to some other sucker either.
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Old 02-26-07, 04:44PM   #9
INJUNTOM
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

While we're on the subject, what's your experience on the fluid type dampers?

I've heard that the fluid can settle to the bottom when the engine is off, and throw things out of balance until the engine warms up....any truth to this?

i really didn't want to take a chance on an off brand fluid balancer after putting some thought to that...
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Old 02-27-07, 11:46AM   #10
gtofreek
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

They counterweighted the flexplate because they duplicate the factory counterweight [or at least try to]. They try to make it a bolt on peice for a stock engine. From the factory, Pontiacs are counterweighted in the rear and neutral balanced in the front.

As for the fluid dampener, we don't use them. They are heavy and were originally designed for low rpm deisel engines. I have seen a few SB Chevies running fluid dampers twist the snout right off the crank! We had a customer bring us a counterweighted 454 Chevy C.A.T. balancer and when we tried to balance the crank, the front was 250 grams off! We found a stock GM balancer and stuck it on and the crank was with-in 20 grams. So, I don't have much faith in C.A.T.s counterweighting. We have seen good results with their rods and cranks, but they need to be checked carefully for size. I think they are fine for a budget street/strip engine but wouldn't take a chance in a serious race engine.
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Old 02-27-07, 06:09PM   #11
Gach
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

In your opinion what's a good balancer to use for a high HP motor, say 750 HP range.
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Old 02-28-07, 04:29AM   #12
GET IT ON
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

gtofreek; You did a very good job on your real streetable engine combo. As you found out, most everything was dyno-only ringers.
You are also absolutely correct on the cat dampers. They are best used as a paper weight or getting more $ out of a scrap load of metal.


Quote:
Originally posted by Gach

In your opinion what's a good balancer to use for a high HP motor, say 750 HP range.
I have been coming more and more of a fan of either ATI, BHJ, and TCI's rattler. Ilike the NHJ as they on a street engine allow a 'no pulley issue' on the car.
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Old 02-28-07, 11:28AM   #13
gtofreek
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach View Post
In your opinion what's a good balancer to use for a high HP motor, say 750 HP range.
I like the BHJ balancers. They make one that is a press fit which is the best way to go. Pressfit with 160 lbs.? it ain't goin' nowhere! Pressfit also does a better job of controlling harmonics. For very specialized applications they can even custom tune one for your engine.
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Old 03-01-07, 10:18AM   #14
Mb125
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

I have used a BHJ and agree its a nice piece
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Old 03-02-07, 03:56AM   #15
INJUNTOM
 
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Default Re: The 409 Engine Masters engine

My ATI gave me a .001 interference on my eagle crank.
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