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Old 07-31-17, 12:34AM   #31
rexs73gto
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SJPONT, yes I'm using a stock full length with a few extra holes drilled right down the center of it so the oil can drain a bit faster back to the pan. I drill all of my pans in the center for that reason. It doesn't hurt the amount of oil coming up but seem to help a bit in getting the oil back to the pan. I usually drill 8 holes 1/4 inch down the center & it works,,, so far. I also stud the oil pump because of the same reasons we use studs on the heads & mains. They hold better. I have to oil pump pick up 1/4 inch off the pan. I would have liked to gotten in down to about 3/8's but that would ment bending the pick up tube so it would sit level. I'm going tomorrow to pick up the oil pan studs with the nuts with the bigger heads that are serrated on the bottom side that keeps them tight without the need of lock washers. The entire set getting 20 of each will only cost me just under $ 5.00 from Mid-States Nut & bolt. Thats a lot better then the $ 35.00 that Summit wanted for a pre-made set. As far as the timing chain do you know how much & who to get them from ?
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Old 07-31-17, 11:24AM   #32
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I am pretty sure I got my chain from Butler.
Just do some research on stock windage trays. They break a lot. then cause problems. A couple of guys on this board (real fast cars) talked me out of a stock windage tray.
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Old 08-02-17, 12:28AM   #33
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I have a few of the stock ones & have never had any problems with them. What kind of concerns are there on these. ???
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Old 08-02-17, 12:54AM   #34
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Read thru this for some concerns...

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hlight=cracked


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Old 08-02-17, 07:19PM   #35
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Thanks Steve I am away, limited access to internet!
Ps I am happy about that!!
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Old 08-03-17, 12:57AM   #36
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Steve, I would like to read the article you have tagged but I can't as I'm 1 of MANY who are banned from that site because I have an opinion of my own & they don't like that over there. If you want to speak your mind about something & they don't like it ,,, well I'm sure you've heard it before. I don't miss that site as I'm not someone who can kiss the admins ass & I think he's an idiot for acting that way. So if you could just let me know here of the concerns I would like to know, but as I have stated I have never had any problems with the ones I have ever used. Thanks Rex.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:01AM   #37
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Interesting, I thought people who were banned could read but not post. Anyway, the OEM trays are prone to cracking. But as always opinions differ as some state they have used them many times with no issues.

It's two pages with many comments. Here is one from a well known builder...

"I still firmly believe that cracked windage trays are a result of an engine not being well balanced, and more importantly, balanced evenly between front and rear. I'm with Steve25, I have built more Pontiacs than I can keep track of, and have yet to see broken windage trays. But, since the tray bolts directly to the main caps, if the crank is out of balance, it will make the main caps move back and forth. The more it's out of balance, the more the caps move."

Personally I had one go bad. Here was a comment I made....

"Years ago I read about isolating the windage tray from vibration so it does not crack. There was an article in High Performance Pontiac magazine about it 16 years ago. And at that time some suggested the stock windage trays can crack because in essence they are a 'crank scraper', and the constant slamming of oil into the pickup area causes the cracking. As far as the extra drilled holes, Ken Crocie made an interesting observation about any extra holes in the trays pan to drain excess oil. Ken advised that the crank spinning within fraction of an inch on the bottom of the tray, there won't be any oil collected there. If not the crank itself, the windage will blow the oil away. So drilling the holes is sort of a wasted effort."

Now again, this was many years ago and I bring this up for conversation only. Obviously as reported here others have used them with no issues.

Another....

"the last 3 factory trays out of stock original blocks all had cracks starting in the corners of the scraper slots-so factory balance job. One I cut off the scraper portion and used on a mild build for the '81 and added the non windage tray bolt on main cap lower dipstick tube. That block had all main caps drilled and tapped. I know at one PSN in Dallas discussion we had years ago Tom Wilhite saw it more on his motors using a 2 step rev limiter to launch so vibration may be a factor."

But again some have used them without issues. So for interest go on the internet and do some further research.


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Old 08-03-17, 11:23AM   #38
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Got a stock one in my 462 for 4 year. Will see how it looks when I pull the engine apart.
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Old 08-06-17, 12:48AM   #39
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My engines are always balanced & like all builders/machine shops they all do a good job usually & some balance better then others. This engine (469) was done very good as it is within 1.5 grams on the crank balance & the rest is 2.2 grams to between 3.1 grams according to the sheet which tells me it must be a good job I think. At least it sounds like it is balanced very good, so I don't think I'll get much vibration from this one. With the pistons & rings in & the crank of course I tried to measure it to see how much it took to turn it over (TQ) & found it took according to my TQ wrench it took about 37 lbs TQ to turn it over . I don't know if that good but it did pull a bit harder as I turned it over I think because it was getting dry & with no extra oil on the parts I stopped so as not to hurt anything but did turn over a little easier after I put some more oil down the cylinder walls. I think thats good, tell me what you think please. ?? I put the oil pan on tonight & it is studded with the type of nuts that have a wide head on them with the underside of them with straiten cuts on them. All as usual for me they were new & I TQ'ed them to 120 inch lbs. The dipstick tube is in & the windage tray is on , a full length tray. I have to get some new drill bits to be able to drill out the pipe plug that is in the back of the block so it will spray on the dist. gear. I got some # 80 drill bit the other day but those are to small so I have to go back & get some that are the correct size so I get the proper .0015 hole in that plug. The front of the lifter galley where the freeze plugs go , the small ones I have tapped them so I could put pipe plugs in them instead of those little freeze plugs as i have read a few times they have at times been a concern. I'm slowly getting it together as I need but am in no hurry because the heads on the engine in the car now are the ones I'll be using on this new engine,,,,, round port E=heads. Plus I will be putting new 1:77 exhaust valves in it instead of the 1:66's & will hand port them during the time off. All I will be doing is port matching them & a very little clean up on the ports.
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Old 08-06-17, 12:57AM   #40
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Rule of tumb is 30# but if you were at #37 dry, I wouldn't worry about it. Sounds good making good progress.
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Old 08-06-17, 09:10PM   #41
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Thanks I'm taking my time as I have a lot right now & want it to go in with no concerns this time. This engine was in before & the machine shop it was taken to with out me knowing is a chop shop & if I'd known it was going there for anything I'd pulled it out right away. I got charged for work they didn't do & they didn't do the line hone/bore correct & the crank was out .010 front to back. I ended up rebuilding the bottom end 3 times & then got fed up & pulled it out for the 4th time & took it to a shop I knew to have them check it out to find out all the problems & they redid the machine work the correct way. but it cost me another $ 2000.00 for them to fix it & another $ 1700.00 in parts,,,, again. My numbers may be a bit off as I was doing all this checking myself & had to check TQ while turning it too. So it may be a pound or 2 off, but it turned over dry pretty good for me. I think if I'd had an old style TQ wrench with the pointer to it might have been a bit lower to because I could see it as I turned it with the pointer pointing right at the numbers while I was turning it & saw it right as it turned. But I think it's close .
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Old 08-06-17, 10:10PM   #42
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It depends to if your using the old style rope seal, If so until it brakes in initially it'll take more then 30# torque. I hear you on the machine work and getting screwed m
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Old 08-08-17, 11:40PM   #43
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I'm using the 1 piece seal from Butler. I have used that one on the last 455 build & liked it & I have the 2 piece seal from Butler on the engine in the car right now.
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Old 08-08-17, 11:55PM   #44
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Their Good seals , I wouldn't worry about the torque thing.
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Old 08-13-17, 11:30PM   #45
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I'm trying to every little detail correct on this one as I'm getting to old to be pulling engines out all the time & want this one to be the last one in, & no more out. I have spent good money on the machine work to make sure it's right & so far it looks better then good. I still am waiting for someone to give me an idea on a cam if I don't use the RA IV cam again. I want it to have good power & speed but would like it to idle a bit lower & smoother then the RA IV cam does in my car right now. It idles at about 900 rpms & is a bit rough at that rpm. I'm not sure if it's going to be possible to get both of those with out going to a roller cam set up. I don't want to ,,, & can't because of cost . I'm on S.S. & that money doesn't go very far these days.
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