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Old 03-11-06, 09:55PM   #16
Gach
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INJUNTOM, you seem to think, because I have an opinion that it will automatically turn into a pissing contest. I had a well know Pontiac Engine builder say this over the phone.

I don't understand the Pontiac guys, their nothing like the Ford and Chevy guys. The Pontiac guys seem to buy into any new product even though it
hasn't been proved to be better, come out with a new intake and they'll run out and buy it. Ford guys won't unless it's been proving to be better.

I think for years the Pontiac guys have been suck into thinking this well
know engine builders really know how to make power, when all we've really had is either a ton of nitrous, blower,turbo. While the Ford and Chevy guys
have the top engine builders in the country, we can't say that in the Pontiac world, anyone who's made real power N/A ( which is were 95% of us are )
have gone to Tony Besioff or guys like Jon Kasse. After the Engine Challenge I think it's pretty obvious that none of the Pontiac Engine builder could come close, many had the oppertunity to compete, and also had the heads, so their can be no excuses.

It goes like this, Take either Butler, KRE or any of the Pontaic grur's and put them up againist Besioff, who do you think will win. We have no Tony's or Jon's, if you bought a head or intake to one of them they could tell you in a minute whether or not it was any good. They Pontiac guys don't know, and because the Pontiac business is so small, their all afaird to lose a sale, or to be shunned if they go againest those trying to make a living off so very few.
So for years we've been behind the 8 Ball.
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Old 03-11-06, 10:19PM   #17
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For me, thinking who's gonna build a motor that lasts, I have to say I'd rather have one of the Pontiac guys build it - they've sent hundreds of pontiac motors out the doors, some of them came back, they figured out why and how to keep it from happening again. I mean look at it this way - I buy a motor from Bischoff or Kaase and it blows up - I'm just some small-fry pontiac weenie, who cares about my opinion cause most of their customers are getting chevy's anyway. But I buy a pontiac-guy motor and things dont' go right then the builder needs to preserve that reputation, in a small community. I mean the BES guys are pretty cool, but I've talked to CVMS, P-Dude, Spotts, KRE, Joe at MRE, Jim Taylor, Nunzi on the phone and you can just tell they are into it because its a PONTIAC. (can you tell I shop around? still haven't 100% settled on heads yet...). So for me I figure I'll go CVMS because of 2 reasons - 1, they're close by, 2, I couldn't find one complaint about the quality of their work no matter how hard I tried. If I was in FL I'd go w/P-dude, Ohio I'd go w/KRE, you get the idea, because those guys are in the same boat, building Pontiacs, staking their reputations on them.

Also I have to wonder if they had the budget/time the pontiac specialty types couldn't do just as well as the guys you mentioned in a competition. Since I'm not a real racer I guess I don't really care who can make the most power in a competition anyway.
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Old 03-11-06, 11:12PM   #18
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I82MUCH, I agree with every thing you've said, only 5% of the Pontiac hobby really race, maybe 10% when you ad in the street strip guys. For the most part 90% of engines built are curiser.So it's a no brainer, but it's eastmated that 40% of the cursiers will move up in performance ( want more power ) that's were the R&D comes in on new products.
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Old 03-11-06, 11:24PM   #19
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Gach, I feel ya - I don't doubt there's an awful lot to be learned from the BES's and Kaase's of the world when it comes to making max power. I guess picking engine builders is a lot like picking engine parts - what is it you wanna do? Consider the resources, experience, reputation, location, and gut feeling you get when you talk to people.

Which is why I'll probably just ask CVMS which freakin' heads to buy .... 'cause if they didn't know more than I do, I'd build it my damned self!
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Old 03-11-06, 11:31PM   #20
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Argument could be made (40% cruisers 10% racers ) 50% of the engine business is high performance. For the 40% who move up this is were the problem lays, so that makes Jim's post very important, when's the last time you've seen any of the engines builders provide this kind of information, see what I'm saying, all we see is flow numbers or dyno numbers, no real testing.

I'll bet if you sharp around anyone from that list and asked them, which head would have worked better, you'll get some surprising answers, I'll bet 99% would say the Aluminum D-port. That's my whole point, you may not be a racer or interested at this point by the statistics say 95% who build or restore will want to make more power.
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Old 03-11-06, 11:38PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I82MUCH
Gach, I feel ya - I don't doubt there's an awful lot to be learned from the BES's and Kaase's of the world when it comes to making max power. I guess picking engine builders is a lot like picking engine parts - what is it you wanna do? Consider the resources, experience, reputation, location, and gut feeling you get when you talk to people.

Which is why I'll probably just ask CVMS which freakin' heads to buy .... 'cause if they didn't know more than I do, I'd build it my damned self!
You hit the nail right on the head, and that's exactly what 90% of guys
do.
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Old 03-11-06, 11:48PM   #22
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And - 90% of the time we're probably better off going with what the pro's tell us!
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Old 03-11-06, 11:53PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I82MUCH
And - 90% of the time we're probably better off going with what the pro's tell us!
Agreed, and a smart choice I might add. So 90% are safe easy builds
and they do a great job.
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Old 03-12-06, 12:07AM   #24
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I just want a car that will scare my wife. And my girlfriend. Ok just kidding about the girlfriend....
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Old 03-12-06, 12:22AM   #25
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LOL...dose she know...the wife. In 1968 I bought a bran new GTO
400 rated at 350 HP with some tunning, headers and gears I was able to
run 12.70's. Compared to todays cars that's a power house, or I should say
what we're use to driving. My V6 with 265 hp scares my wife...LOL
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Old 03-12-06, 12:35AM   #26
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Man I get so psyched thinking about driving it I forget about the fact that I have to get it back from the body shop, make the brakes work and keep it from catching on fire first... I'm probably gonna kill myself with this thing.
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Old 03-12-06, 12:44AM   #27
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I feel you excitement, love hearing guys like you getting excited.
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Old 03-12-06, 02:18AM   #28
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i'm coming in a little late to the post but i think i will take the bait just for the sake of argument. while there is no doubt whatsoever that mr. hand is VERY thorough when testing i would have to consider a couple things: i don't recall him saying HOW LONG it took him to perfect his low rpm, cast iron head combinations. he stated 6 years for this one alone. i remember an article in hpp about 10 years ago(?) that outlined one of his combinations. that one ran very well too. i wonder how much performance he could coax from those heads or e-heads with that much time. 2nd, conventional theory would dictate more compression for the aluminum head. was the difference between the two be enough to recreate the same thermal efficiency.(does it really matter at that performance level?) i would have never believed that such a modest increase in volume would create such a detrimental effect. very interesting post. what do you think, gach? should kre put him on the payroll to troubleshoot their products? lol
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Old 03-12-06, 05:27AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach
INJUNTOM, you seem to think, because I have an opinion that it will automatically turn into a pissing contest.
no, that's not what i think..i'm was just trying to be funny, which is why i used " " ...but there has been some pretty heated discussions around here lately, and i did notice that there are several regulars here that seemed to steer clear of this one.
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Old 03-12-06, 05:35AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gach
I don't understand the Pontiac guys, their nothing like the Ford and Chevy guys. The Pontiac guys seem to buy into any new product even though it
hasn't been proved to be better, come out with a new intake and they'll run out and buy it. Ford guys won't unless it's been proving to be better.
not me...i don't have the budget of a lot of the people in the hobby, so when i make a purchase, it is a well thought out decision. if you look at the specs of my 455, you'll find that i spent the money in some key areas, and have a matched system...not a whole lot of "trick of the week" stuff.
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