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Old 11-22-09, 02:18PM   #31
Big Speed
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O.k. , o.k. ... Twinturbo , everything you just said is basically correct . but the questions were originally about Langer's heads. I know they are similar on the exhaust side to the ones we do...because that's all the engines require...and that's about 55-60% of the intake , if you wanted a ratio. I've had the port up to 305 cfm...and then I made it better and it flows 270-275. John's never going to give you details about his heads...he races a very competitive heads-up class. You will never see pictures and such along with a prescription for how to create them...the guys who know...just know. I't's nice to compare notes on some of this stuff so we all learn from it , but some stuff just can't be discussed . You mentioned EC's wonderful pump gas head , which ironically has very similar exhaust port number to Frank G.'s 1,080 h.p. 541. Do you think that's coincedence ? Or do you believe once the correct cross-section and exit speed has been established relative to displacement and RPM (Frank's make peak power @7200 and EC's at 7300) ...the kind of engine that it is (street or race) does'nt matter? Because that's the truth. Flow numbers and int./ex. ratios in reference to the exhaust port don't mean as much as we used to think...or at least the more we learn...the less important they become. Make the port work ...forget about the flow number.
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Old 11-22-09, 05:29PM   #32
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Default Langer won't spill the beans ??

Lol, i was hoping Langer might be tempted to maybe show something, hey, you never know until you ask, right ? Well, my response to EC's was basically stating that to simply say exh/int ratio doesn't matter, is incorrect. Boosted motors don't like having the %'s that low, n/a stuff can push the %'s further, but i was just asking to see where Langer was at as far as exh/int % ....
I know we weren't discussing Boosted apps here, but i seemed a little blunt to make a that suggestion about it not mattering at all. But yes, comparing notes is always a good thing. Getting people to do it, sometimes isn't easy, lol. But, we've discovered lately, down here in Fl that the added ethenal in the fuel, for some reason has been responsive to some increases in exh/int ratios, no huge changes, but, when it's a true street motor that gets a bunch of miles on it every year, we can't poke the pistons out of the deck and such, which helps with this problem too. Some of these combo are NOS motors too, which have some effect on what we are seeing.
It is very interesting for me to compare street engine assemblies, to more aggressive combos though, always looking for something new to try.
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Old 11-22-09, 05:30PM   #33
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Default .........

So, i take it that was a no, on any pics of Langers Heads popping up here, ?????? Not even a 2-3 footer ?? low resolution even, lol !!
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Old 11-22-09, 08:53PM   #34
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Big Speed quote "make the port work...forget about flow numbers". Isnt that what Tony at BES has said recently. Must be true.
This new AP/CFM,CRE engine that makes 1080HP with a single , repeatable CNC head,cast intake without a ton of work is a big leap for us Pontiac guys. It is within a few HP of Rex and Langer with less expense.
Its a big bracket/super gas engine and it is almost the Pontiac NA horsepower leader.
I bet the car has the Pontiac E.T. record soon. Give that car a sheet metal intake with s Doms and a dry sump and see what happens.
I do not know about pump gas being "crappy". There is more energy in it than race gas. And regular has more energy in it then premium. Its the higher cylinder pressures that can come into play with race gas that changes everything.
Filling that cylinder and cylinder pressure is everything.
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Old 11-22-09, 10:27PM   #35
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I can tell you whats in it, 4 of the last 5 engines we've built down here, with BLP carbs, have had to be torn down for cleaning, there is this mysterious black crap, in the blocks, so i don't know how much energy that black stuff has in it, but you never know. And yes, the level of engines you are talking about here, can get-a-way with it. I never disputed that. But even your motor EC, is not a true street engine, not one that gets 10,000+ miles a year, with a/c and no gear, and no convertor, and limited camshaft.
This is the area or type of combo, that i'm saying exh/int is more important. All i was doing, was simply trying to show that it does matter, just depends on what you are building. Not everyone has a max effort pump/race gas engine. When the VE goes down, so do many other things. Not just peak power. it really creates a whole lot of problems. I think you are a little off, by the way you make it sound like, pump gas fuel, is some how more potent, than any kind of race gas. If that were the case, Nascar would all be running pump gas motors.
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Old 11-23-09, 03:11PM   #36
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No one ever said pump gas is more potent than race gas twin. There are more BTUs in pump gas than race gas but because race gas has a higher temp flash point you can take advantage of using higher cylinder pressures in a race gas combo.
There is more "pop" in a race gas engine because of the higher cylinder pressure mix being lit off. Not because there is more "bang" in race gas.
Higher cylinder pressures mean more available heat, and heat = energy.
When you put race gas in a pump gas engine it slows down.
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Old 11-23-09, 03:57PM   #37
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Default Ok .....

Well if you say " more available heat, and heat = energy " .... then can you tell me why a compression motor ( on race gas) will run cooler, than the same motor at low compression on pump gas ??
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Old 11-23-09, 05:13PM   #38
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Energy value is an expression of the potential energy in the fuel. This energy is measured in BTU's (British Thermal Units) per POUND, not per gallon. This data is important as Air Fuel (AF) ratio is measured in weight and not volume. This value may vary with compression ratio and engine speed.
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Old 11-23-09, 08:01PM   #39
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Default Honest question ??

My last post was really more of question, this happened with a motor, and we weren't really sure why ? It was a small difference, but it was there.
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Old 11-23-09, 11:35PM   #40
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I will take a stab at it twin.... or guess.
Could it be because the VE goes up with a engine with CR. Moves more air, better at cooling things down.
Pump gas engine, air is more lazy, hangs around longer and heats things up.
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Old 11-24-09, 04:28AM   #41
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Whats the story on the Tiger street heads? kind of spendy at just under 6k or 6k+ with a cam to go with them. Is the tiger intake required also or will my victor work? Or would it cost as much to get the victor to perform the same with the tiger heads to be on par with the Tiger intake?

Kinda strange having multiple choices with more to come with a Pontiac. Who would have guessed 20 years ago.
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Old 11-24-09, 10:45AM   #42
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Trdbrd , the Tiger street package can be used with a Victor intake and a set of manifold spacers . your application would determine how much manifold work would be required with the victor . I've had my box stock Tiger intake support 1,050 h.p. on my dyno with a port match only on a 541c.i. . Distribution is very good for an out of the box manifold and the power...well , how much do need to make ? If you do decide to go Tiger head...get the manifold as well. There's major power potential with room to grow! I'm assuming this is a pump gas application? If so , over 800 h.p. with the right components on the bowl port street package is VERY possible . Good luck with your decision . Johnny
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Old 11-25-09, 02:33AM   #43
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What is the smallest bore i can put a set of Tigars on ??
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Old 11-25-09, 09:49AM   #44
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We originally set it up for 4.310" minimum. There's been talk of them on a smaller bore...but we never felt the need to go there. If your using this head , then you probably need the IA2 block . It would be a one of , hand ported deal to get the chamber width correct on a small bore , but it could be done. We've fooled with it in the shop. But our CNC'd chambers need to be on a larger bore.
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Old 11-25-09, 10:03AM   #45
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I should add that valve size would also come into play. You would have to use a smaller valve configuration to make it work , which would be custom stainless or Titainium from us or All Pontiac (easy since we have the prints) and not a lot more money than a shelf set. Say a 2.200 int. and 1.700-1.750 ex. maybe. I don't think I have enough material at the throat to size the valves much smaller than that and make the percentages work. It would be a fun project ! Johnny
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